Torture, Sexuality, and...Dungeon Scale? in P:C

Public discussion of the Province: Cyrodiil project.
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Tes96
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Torture, Sexuality, and...Dungeon Scale? in P:C

Postby Tes96 » 12 Dec 2011, 09:00

Notice from DJGamer: This thread is split off from a number of posts in the original FAQ question-posting thread. It went off on a number of tangents, a few of which are better suited to individual threads.

This one was particularly difficult because the initial post that started the new discussion actually brings up two distinct subjects-the scale of our dungeons and how much extreme content should be included in our mod.

The discussion veers mostly the latter subject by the end and I feel it's still worthy of being continued to some extent.


May we make the privateer's hold a lot bigger and deeper and far more difficult to escape out of? Wait- I mean the Imperial dungeons (my bad, was playing Daggerfall today). In the intro for TESIV, they say nobody has escaped in 40 years, since the days of Jagar Tharn & The Imperial Simulacrum. But it sure was pretty easy to escape. I mean, even if it was just another day and not the TESIV story, the jail cell gates in the Imperial prison don't look to be any different than any other gates in the game. Do you think we should make the Imperial dungeons and prisons have a Daggerfallesque flavor to them? You know, zigzagging everywhere so that you get completely lost? That at least would partially explain why nobody has escaped, because it's damn hard to find any exit. But the Blades and the Legion would have secret entrances all over the place that they would of course know about. And torture chambers! We need torture rooms where you see the remains of prisoners who have had their limbs pulled apart, or their genitals mutilated or their skin burned and what not. Man, there is some lovely torture in the book American Psycho, for those that have seen the movie but not read the book. One chapter has the protagonist lock and chain up this girl so she can't move very well or escape, and after a while, he releases these big starving rat(s) in the room and he has packed a bunch of meat into her vagina. So you can imagine the torture of having rats eat and gnaw at her down there, chewing off pieces of her clitoris and her labia (both minora & majora).

Getting a bit off topic here. I should make a separate thread on the inclusion of torture and torture meshes for this project, and people's opinions on it. My main question was will we be making the dungeons much bigger and more diverse than TESIV, and I'm guessing we probably will. I know I would if I got a chance to design one. :)
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The Khan
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby The Khan » 12 Dec 2011, 10:53

It would be much more fun.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Praedator » 12 Dec 2011, 11:28

IMO we should not include nudity or any 'sexual' aspect in our mod P:C. Those who want that should load seperate mods, but not in a province mod accessible to everyone.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Tes96 » 12 Dec 2011, 11:59

Praedator wrote:IMO we should not include nudity or any 'sexual' aspect in our mod P:C. Those who want that should load seperate mods, but not in a province mod accessible to everyone.
I agree. It can be separate mods that are compatible with P:C.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby The Khan » 12 Dec 2011, 12:17

Praedator wrote:IMO we should not include nudity or any 'sexual' aspect in our mod P:C. Those who want that should load seperate mods, but not in a province mod accessible to everyone.


I never said anything like that. :shrug:
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Helena » 12 Dec 2011, 12:27

Tes96 wrote:May we make the privateer's hold a lot bigger and deeper and far more difficult to escape out of? Wait- I mean the Imperial dungeons (my bad, was playing Daggerfall today). In the intro for TESIV, they say nobody has escaped in 40 years, since the days of Jagar Tharn & The Imperial Simulacrum. But it sure was pretty easy to escape. I mean, even if it was just another day and not the TESIV story, the jail cell gates in the Imperial prison don't look to be any different than any other gates in the game. Do you think we should make the Imperial dungeons and prisons have a Daggerfallesque flavor to them? You know, zigzagging everywhere so that you get completely lost? That at least would partially explain why nobody has escaped, because it's damn hard to find any exit.

Personally, I really wouldn't want to see Daggerfall-style dungeons in P:C. The dungeons in Daggerfall made no sense whatsoever; you've got this huge, maze-like underground complex out in the middle of nowhere, filled with stuff that has no reason to be there, like monsters and random torture implements. Every single one of Daggerfall's dungeons felt like it was just there to be a Creepy Dungeon, which is the opposite approach to the one taken in Morrowind (where each one had a clear purpose, e.g. as a tomb or abandoned stronghold). By all means, let's make the jails more difficult to escape, but not by making them more Daggerfall-esque.

Same thing with the gruesome sexualised torture. Apart from the fact that we don't want to make this an 'adults only' mod, the Imperial authorities are not the frickin' Spanish Inquisition. I'm not suggesting they would never use torture (e.g. against spies or political agitators), but we want to emphasise the difference between them and the Tribunal Temple, who torture dissidents as a matter of official policy. We can include a couple of torture chambers in certain places - Oblivion had a few, IIRC - but they should be the exception, rather than the rule.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Tes96 » 12 Dec 2011, 14:52

Helena wrote:
Tes96 wrote:May we make the privateer's hold a lot bigger and deeper and far more difficult to escape out of? Wait- I mean the Imperial dungeons (my bad, was playing Daggerfall today). In the intro for TESIV, they say nobody has escaped in 40 years, since the days of Jagar Tharn & The Imperial Simulacrum. But it sure was pretty easy to escape. I mean, even if it was just another day and not the TESIV story, the jail cell gates in the Imperial prison don't look to be any different than any other gates in the game. Do you think we should make the Imperial dungeons and prisons have a Daggerfallesque flavor to them? You know, zigzagging everywhere so that you get completely lost? That at least would partially explain why nobody has escaped, because it's damn hard to find any exit.

Personally, I really wouldn't want to see Daggerfall-style dungeons in P:C. The dungeons in Daggerfall made no sense whatsoever; you've got this huge, maze-like underground complex out in the middle of nowhere, filled with stuff that has no reason to be there, like monsters and random torture implements. Every single one of Daggerfall's dungeons felt like it was just there to be a Creepy Dungeon, which is the opposite approach to the one taken in Morrowind (where each one had a clear purpose, e.g. as a tomb or abandoned stronghold). By all means, let's make the jails more difficult to escape, but not by making them more Daggerfall-esque.

Same thing with the gruesome sexualised torture. Apart from the fact that we don't want to make this an 'adults only' mod, the Imperial authorities are not the frickin' Spanish Inquisition. I'm not suggesting they would never use torture (e.g. against spies or political agitators), but we want to emphasise the difference between them and the Tribunal Temple, who torture dissidents as a matter of official policy. We can include a couple of torture chambers in certain places - Oblivion had a few, IIRC - but they should be the exception, rather than the rule.

When you address Daggerfall from that perspective, I can see your point. Those dungeons were big and hard to solve, but they really didn't make much sense.

And the Imperials remind me more of Romans, who weren't into torture like, as you put it, the Spanish Inquisition. So yeah, your point of view makes sense.
If torture devices fit in certain dungeons, then I say let's put them in. And I think having a scarce amount of them here and there (and perhaps some in the Imperial prison) will emphasize them better, as opposed to overusing them. The more you use something, the less meaning and impact it has. Just like swearing, if you hear someone swear every day, it loses its impact and it begins to sounds like everyday speech, rather than them cursing and swearing to emphasize emotion and interjection. That makes sense, right?

I had no idea the Tribunal tortured people. You don't see or read about any torture in the game (despite it being a PG-13 game). How did you know they tortured? Was it in an in-game book?
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Osidian » 12 Dec 2011, 15:50

I agree with everything Helena said.

Btw, Tes96, wtf? I can't see what's lovely about that torture scene :/
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Praedator » 12 Dec 2011, 16:25

Tes96, stop coming with ALL ideas you have, but select a few good ones and share them plz. Or respond to someone elses idea in a constructive matter so we can make something sweet out of this. I mean not all you say is wrong, but I tend to skip everything you write, and I assume that is not what you want to happen...

I know I say to few, or maybe too much now..I do not intend to offend you in any way, just not all of us are lore-monkeys, I am a cluttermonkey who likes to make interiors and exteriors and know nothing about lore, else then what is in the game and I tend to forget everything once a quest is done, makes it replayable too :)

I just hope noone thinks I nod to everything because I do not give my opinion so often.

Keep in mind that we deal with a broad public, from children to maybe in your eyes old people (~60), and should be understood as well as appreciated by them.

If you have adult ideas for a mod you might want to go to Wolflore, they have an adult content modding community. I am there myself, though haven't modded anything.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Helena » 12 Dec 2011, 16:40

Tes96 wrote:I had no idea the Tribunal tortured people. You don't see or read about any torture in the game (despite it being a PG-13 game). How did you know they tortured? Was it in an in-game book?

It's mentioned in Progress of Truth. I'm not sure whether the Tribunal themselves torture people, but the Ordinators certainly do.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby The Khan » 12 Dec 2011, 21:27

I like the idea of a "harder-to-get-out-of" prison/cave/dungeon but if it was like the Arena dungeon at the start it would take more than a day to find the way out.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Tes96 » 13 Dec 2011, 00:13

I just like reading about torture. It's so extreme and it offends so many people. It's just alluring to me. I'm weird, I know.

Praedator, I think knowing lore helps you design interiors and exteriors much better because you know about the culture of the people, rather than just copying the design of other interiors. But yeah, the adult stuff can be mod "addons" which are, obviously, optional addons. And you're right, it is played by people of all ages, which I really abhor, as it compels us to keep things PG rated. But it's only a minor inconvenience at heart.

Thanks for the book reference, Helena.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Wollibeebee » 13 Dec 2011, 03:14

so if we are making the mod PG, we can keep the forums PG too, thanks Tes.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Tarius » 13 Dec 2011, 03:56

Tes96 wrote:I just like reading about torture. It's so extreme and it offends so many people. It's just alluring to me. I'm weird, I know.

Actually, I am pretty sure that torture is a fetish to some people.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Tes96 » 13 Dec 2011, 04:05

Tarius wrote:
Tes96 wrote:I just like reading about torture. It's so extreme and it offends so many people. It's just alluring to me. I'm weird, I know.

Actually, I am pretty sure that torture is a fetish to some people.
Haha, just like tickling too! (I'm starting to stray too much from the OP topic)
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby alex25 » 13 Dec 2011, 07:26

Wait! Is Morrowind PG-13? Despite the daedra at the Maar Gaan shrine that wants to gently rape your corpse? And the milk finger and other stuff mentioned in the 36 lessons? Weird.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 13 Dec 2011, 16:36

My European GotY copy says pegi 12+
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Praedator » 13 Dec 2011, 18:08

TerrifyingDaedricFoe wrote:My European GotY copy says pegi 12+


same here.

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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby Scamp » 13 Dec 2011, 21:07

USK 12.
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Re: Have any questions about the project?

Postby alex25 » 13 Dec 2011, 21:45

My european GOTY is unsurprisingly similar with your copies. But it's still weird. Or perhaps rape is okay if its gentle?

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