Skyrim and Cyrodiil

[Worsas]

There is something we've been discussing on the irc-chat off and on:

As some of you may know, I've been jumping forth and back between P:C and SHOTN quite a lot lately. And I'm not the only person who does that.

To me it is a problem, because I often suffer a nagging feeling of neglecting the respective other project, when I work on one of them without helping the other one for a while. That may sound silly and probably is, but that is what nearly gets me to a point where I want to quit one of the two projects, even though I consider my participation in either projects as crucial. That may sound as if I thought rather high of myself, but to me it often seems just to be the little bit of support I do in addition to what other people already do that can make all the difference.

You probably already see what I'm getting at: I propose we merge the projects. In the first place that would include using the same website and forum and a common organisation.

There are two big advantages and one possibly big disadvantage I see about doing this:

Advantages:
- We can compensate weaknesses the respective projects have. Skyrim has never been as strong on lore and "story" as P:C or TR, for example. Some parts of SHOTN are not as solidified and do not carry the mark of the nirn-universe as strongly as they maybe should. If we had a common forum, some of the people from P:C could stop by and give input without having to sign up somewhere else and involve themselves more than they want. Skyrim on the other hand, as far as I can tell, has a better workforce in the interior and exterior section and could lend a hand around here, which practically happens already anyway. But the fact that the forums are not divided would make it much more convenient for a couple of people, I imagine.

- There can be one person doing publicity for both projects. And we can use the same space for both projects to show off. It might be more likely that there is something to show off at a given by one of the projects.

- Together we might have an active staff size similar to that of TR. We would have a bigger weight in the modding-community as a collaboration that works on the active province mods, given that we can increase publicity in some way.

Disadvantage:
- We run into the risk of the presence of a sibling project on the same forum causing people to lose their focus and stray themselves too far. That aside, it would actually increase the feasibility and productivity to only do one of the two projects, anyway.

------------------------------

But I have spent so much effort on both projects that I want both to continue and at least reach some of their aims. Reaching that common release we've been speaking about, would already be an unlikely but desirable mark, I'd definetively love to see it hit and of course, seeing the Nibenay after that would be even better than that.

The way I see it there are only two ways I can go about this:
- I only work on one of the two projects and leave the other project to itself.
- We put the projects together and combine and optimize our capabilities and try to stem both projects.

[James007]

I completely agree with him. I am also not very convenient to follow the many small forums.
I plan to try to help with the voice acting, and I would have been easier to project a more centralized. A great site with sections better small forums.

Spoiler: show

And I think the "new argon" better renamed in "Eye of Argonia"

Spoiler: show

And if Skyrim and Cyrodiil will have a single story and release it will be very great.

[SamirA]

I tried to get the projects under one roof with project tamriel some time ago. I am not opposed to merging at all. If we do merge I think we need to approach everything in a holistic manner, where we look at the world building of each province as a single item and plan to release along those lines, meaning we need to meet the landmasses as a priority and then we can decide how to move forward from there. It also allows for us to quest across borders which could be very very cool.

[Scamp]

After talking about this to Muspila, I can finally make an official statement as well. Working on two projects, on two different forums, with two different teams that consist essentially and mostly of the same people, is very tiresome. I was thinking in a similar way to Muspila in a way that I considered leaving one of the two projects.

So yeah, I'm a huge backer of the whole idea. I'm mostly worried about the technical procedures, such as grabbing backups of the ShotN database and getting in touch with both administrators...

[Worsas]

If we do this, the most complicated thing we'll have to figure out is how we can come together in a single forum, how we transfer/merge users, if that's even possible (it should be possible with several steps involving some advanced sql, I imagine.) or if we take the arduous but simpler approach of making a completely new forum and transfer things from both forums piece by piece.

Forum structure and other stuff would have to be made up aswell. How we separate the fields of the two projects, how the design should look, etc etc. That gives me a slight headache. Also, all of the people of the previous forum will have to settle to the new forum. That would be the third forum move of SHOTN in our history and people who didn't visit our forums for a while will have to get pointed to the new place. Many small things to take care of.

[James007]

By the way, usually the province are surrounded by mountains. This is done to limit the game space. But now the mountains just over the border are not needed. You can do this: http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1410/0b/18922dbfaf7b.png
Bruma on the plateau, between Bruma and Skyrim no big mountains, so you can cross the border where you want.

[Infragris]

So we'll be doing the Empires of Man, then? I must admit that I am one of the people who have chosen not to get involved in multiple projects, mostly because Skyrim lore doesn't entice me all that much. Which is not to say I oppose the move, though. We'll have to reconcile a number of things, like our interpretations of the Imperial Cult, Mages Guild and Imperial Legion (especially the latter, what with the different sub-legions thing we've got going). I also understand that SHotN has a different, more LGNPC-like approach to dialogue than the one we were considering?

EDIT: @James007: Pale Pass is an important geographical landmark north of Bruma, though. An open plateau could be attempted a bit more to the west, around Sancre Tor: the frequent Breton/Nordic invasions suggest there is a traversable space there.

[James007]

Okay. Between Cyrodiil and Elsweyr seems to be also no mountains.

[Scamp]

By the way, usually the province are surrounded by mountains. This is done to limit the game space. But now the mountains just over the border are not needed. You can do this: http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1410/0b/18922dbfaf7b.png
Bruma on the plateau, between Bruma and Skyrim no big mountains, so you can cross the border where you want.

Not sure what you mean with mountains not being "needed". Yes, there are no mountains between Cyrodiil and Elsweyr, but I'm pretty sure the Jerall mountains are a thing and also noted down as the highest mountains in Cyrodiil, so they will be there.

Btw, this is rather off-topic. Contrary to what the topic might suggest, this thread is not about geography or anything related to the game world.

[Worsas]

I also understand that SHotN has a different, more LGNPC-like approach to dialogue than the one we were considering?

Not necessarily. We have had the idea at some point that small villages should have remarkable inhabitants with unique dialogue while larger towns and cities should more rely on generic dialogue.

[Yeti]

If we do go through with this, I hope you find some area of interest in our Skyrim lands, Infragris. I am a huge fan of your lore contributions around here.

We'll have to reconcile a number of things, like our interpretations of the Imperial Cult, Mages Guild and Imperial Legion (especially the latter, what with the different sub-legions thing we've got going).

Making lore consistent between the provinces is something we should aspire to do regardless of whether we merge projects.

I also understand that SHotN has a different, more LGNPC-like approach to dialogue than the one we were considering?

No, not anymore. We realized it was insane/not desirable.

[SamirA]

The few people who only do bits for one of the current projects can always focus on that ones assets moving forward if they wish. Most of us are or have been involved in both however so as Scamp and Muspila have stated, this really only makes sense to do.

[Worsas]

There are some major worries by SHOTN-members at the moment that I would like to have addressed yet. If there are people feeling meh about this, I don't have a good feeling with performing such a move.

I think the biggest point is that people don't want to feel forced to deal with P:C- matters and want to retain autonomity within the respective project (basically not merge the projects). We would also have to put one project atop of the other project in a common forum, which isn't really optimal.

An alternative way to go about this, would be trying to create a common login for both projects and have them linked to from a common page that we use to do announcements and stuff.

We could then still have it so that one who is modder on one project is automatically modder for the other project. Due to the joint login and the common mainpage the barrier between the projects would be made as small as thinkable possible.

[James007]

Several different large section on the forum. And there is no problem. Who does not want to participate in two projects can only sit in one section.

[Infragris]

Thank you, Yeti. The thing with Skyrim lore is that a lot of the interesting (weird) stuff is already taken, so I feel like there's little for me to do. Still, I might pass by one of these days...

Link to the Skyrim topic here.

I must say I'm not sure about where the plan is going now. We went from making a collaborative project to thesevague plans of hooking up two forums under the same banner - which is pretty much an incremental change on Project Tamriel. If we want to do this we should go all the way, not just do half a symbolic move which only necessitates another move two or three years down the line.

I get that people are unsure of this, but most fears seem ungrounded, based on the idea that P:C will be privileged over SHotN (which I hope will not be so) or that people will leave SHotN to work on P:C and vice versa (which happens anyway).

[James007]

What about other projects? Elsweyer, Argonia etc.

[SamirA]

All we have to do is continue with the Project Tamriel style. It doesn't mean SHOTN has to join PT, but that both P:C and SHOTN can start up its own joint venture. Call it the TES III Province Project or something and have the logins and modders work across the same interface with two "different" forums that keeps the individual claims in their respective "mod" and if certain people never want to go to the other forum then that is ok. Right now if you are promoted at one you are basically given a free pass at the other mod anyway why not just make it all official and easier on the large portion of people who do both anyway. I myself would help more with SHOTN were we joined. I basically had to remove myself from over there because I had to focus my energy on saving P:C at one time and it was too much of a hassle to go back and forth. Same reason I never look at TR any more, just too much hassle, but that is another matter.

Basically all we need is a portal page like the one we have here that links to the two somehow separated forums, both links can be our wordmarks and both be at the top side by side with a potential third forum or some area on the portal where all the true tie in stuff like release schedule and story elements are discussed.

The joint portion of the new layout can be where we talk about how to collaborate releases to best tie the two provinces together and also potential cross-province story items and details in the lore that would be best if they were on the same page (this is really the case regardless, I think most of us have always wanted a world that made sense and fit together but if we don't hammer out some details about certain factions then it will never feel that way).

[sasquatch]

I don't see who would be against this. Problem with both mods is manpower and planning. Scale is largest issue with both. Shotn for example made a small village a 100 interior metropolis. Interior alone is massive workload then it has to be NPCd and quested. It also sets a bad precedent for all cities that follow because everything has to be at same scale. I'd also argue karthwasten's design is relatively boring, sprawling and flat, even if implementation is good. I see the same has been done here. Planning will be you largest obstacle especially since there seems to be such opposition to it.

With projects merged everyone benefits. Game space should also be merged. If solitude region is create next there is benefit of river and shoreline for two great natural buffers and a reasonable goal. Player could fat travel between harbor from cyrodiil, skyrim and morrowind with what should have been done in the first place and on a smaller, more reasonable scale.

[SamirA]

No matter what happens, the landmasses will still be just as big as they have always been. I don't disagree that some places don't need to be quite as large, but I think everyone wants the first releases to be impressive. We can scale cities down a bit.

[Griff]

Karthwasten was the capital of old in skyrim or some it like that. Just because tes 5 made it a hamlet doesnt mean Shotn has to. And as samira said the landmass is fooking hugh it has to be filled with somthing. with the merging of the projects luxray on the shotn forums has made a few very good points. Why change something that already works, and we are kinda working like one project anyway with people jumping back and forth even if we did merge there would still be moving back on forth just on the same website/forum