Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

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Tarius
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Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Tarius » 27 May 2011, 02:30

This is for anyone who is going to do interior tiles(or snap together exteriors).
If you dont already know what proper size the meshes should be to get things to snap together properly in the Construction Set, this post will tell you.

Blender:
0.1 units in Blender equals 1 snapping unit in the CS.
[[The .nif export is, by default, set up to correct the size by 10x. Its best to just consider .1 units in Blender as equaling 1 snap unit in the CS and not to mess with this, unless you know what you are doing or are just playing around with it.]]

3ds Max:
1.0m in 3ds Max equals 1 snapping unit in the CS. In Units Setup under the Customize drop down menu, you would set it to meters and in the System Unit Setup, you would set the System Units Scale to 1.0 and meters.

As for proper interior tile sizes, smaller peices such as those from the in_impsmall set, will usually fit inside a box which is 256x256x256 snap units.
Sizes used are seemingly reduced from that by 8 units. 248 units and 240 units(such as hall width or length) are two examples of sizes used for interiors that came with the game.
(Interior tiles do not have to be perfectly cubish, so long as their edges line up correctly when placed.)
The above is only a guide and using these exact sizes is not required; the only thing that is required is that any sizes used be able to snap together properly and easily. This means that it is probably best if the snap sizes of 256, 248, 240, 232 etc are used. Testing a basic box that is 248x248x248 units in the CS yields a perfect fit when snapping is set to both 4 and 8 units. The best size touse overall is probably 256 as that is one of those important numbers as it has roots of 2.(2 to the 8th power)

Ok, after doing google searches and looking around some, I think I may have seen this only mentioned in the CS wiki for some tutorial, although it wasnt very to the point on the exact sizes used(or even that clear). So I went and looked for myself and figured out the sizes. Now its here and easy to see.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
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Wollibeebee
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 28 May 2013, 08:52

Could we get a wireframe box tutorial up in here? It is right wireframes that go around a mesh in the CS?

(For Scamp's sanity and mine.)

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Tarius » 28 May 2013, 17:36

Wollibeebee wrote:Could we get a wireframe box tutorial up in here? It is right wireframes that go around a mesh in the CS?

(For Scamp's sanity and mine.)

Well, it was just for starting size, not for how to stick them together. Actually, do you mean this tutorial? Or some new one?
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 28 May 2013, 23:45

A new one. Take a look at my ginseng model currently in the data. I can't find a way to shrink the box around it at all. And I have quite a few meshes (most of mine...) suffering from it.

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Rattfink333
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Rattfink333 » 28 May 2013, 23:54

can't you open in nifskope. select show havok in render tab. then hit the box that shows. which should take you to the bounding box selection on the side. And then edit it? Could be wrong, but i think that works.
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Tarius » 29 May 2013, 01:40

No, havok is not part of this model. In fact, the only time I usually see havok anywhere is with Oblivion meshes since they have physics and most meshes for MW do not.

Anyway, the stem for the plant is the cause of this. If you look in nifskope at the center z value/radius, you will see a value of over 400 when it should be like 10x less than that. Now, you could try editing the value right there directly, but I have no idea what sort of effect this will have. Did you make that mesh wolli? Eitherway, the center is for whatever reason very far off from where it should be and this is why the box is large.

Now, something else I see that is frequently on many of the models is unneeded properties. The stencil property is on a ton of stuff that doesnt need stencil; in this case, stencil is on the stems and you dont need to be able to see inside the stems. All stencil does is cause both sides of a poly to be rendered. What effect this has on resource usage I dont really know, but I am sure that it probably takes less to load and show a mesh without it. Alpha property is also a big problem in many meshes(not in this one).
I suppose what there should be is a tutorial on proper nif handling or something.

To mention something else, I dont know if it matters, but I see NCO 3 times in the ginseng when you could put a single NCO in there under the main NiNode. I am sure that at the least this would reduce loading times. I dont know if anyone knows this, but what is the purpose of the "Bytes Remaining" feature under the NCO? I saw on a mesh somewhere(think it was from MW) that it had a value of 7. I see on the ginseng that it has a value of zero. Apparently it doesnt matter?
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 29 May 2013, 01:44

I'll check out the other 2 things in a minute, and yeah, I made the Ginseng.

Thedaywalker told me to apply NCO to the nitrishapes, I'll try doing it on the ninode.

a Nifskope tutorial would be swell.

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Rattfink333
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Rattfink333 » 29 May 2013, 01:53

Tarius wrote:No, havok is not part of this model. In fact, the only time I usually see havok anywhere is with Oblivion meshes since they have physics and most meshes for MW do not.


Yeah, I know morrowind doesn't use havok. But the bounding box is the box around an item in the cs right? And editing it in nifkope should work to change the way oversized boxes in the cs right? Nifskope just shows that box under render havok, although it really isn't.
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Tarius » 29 May 2013, 02:00

Rattfink333 wrote:
Tarius wrote:No, havok is not part of this model. In fact, the only time I usually see havok anywhere is with Oblivion meshes since they have physics and most meshes for MW do not.


Yeah, I know morrowind doesn't use havok. But the bounding box is the box around an item in the cs right? And editing it in nifkope should work to change the way oversized boxes in the cs right? Nifskope just shows that box under render havok, although it really isn't.

Actually, no, it doesnt show a bounding box unless its specifically part of the mesh(as in it exists as a node; yes, I know they all have bounding boxes, but I mean like physically part of the mesh). Unless my NifSkope isnt showing the same things yours is.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Rattfink333
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Rattfink333 » 29 May 2013, 02:17

Yeah it looks like your right. tried some other models, no box. and when i went down into the detail tree to find it. and editing one without a box changes the model itself...sorry :oops:

There has to be a hard and fast way to fix that bounding box problem that shows in the CS.
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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Tarius » 29 May 2013, 03:16

Rattfink333 wrote:Yeah it looks like your right. tried some other models, no box. and when i went down into the detail tree to find it. and editing one without a box changes the model itself...sorry :oops:

There has to be a hard and fast way to fix that bounding box problem that shows in the CS.

Did you try editing the coordinates of the center like I suggested?
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Mwgek » 29 May 2013, 07:41

In 3dsMax there is an easy shortcut for this; Reset Xform. I'm not using Blender for anything else then exporting, so I'm not sure if there is a similar option in Blender.

[EDIT]
I had a little look around, what about centering the cursor Shift+c and then a Ctrl+a and select the second option. This should reset the rotation/scale/location to 0 and will not reposition the object. You can also find these options in the object menu. Not sure if centering the cursor is needed and maybe it doesn't even work, like I said I don't use blender that often.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Kiteflyer61 » 31 May 2013, 02:11

Selecting the entire mesh in object mode in blender and hitting Ctrl-A, then "Scale and rotation to object data" will reset the box to encompass the whole mesh perfectly. It resets the scale and rotation to 0 without moving anything. :D



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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 31 May 2013, 02:16

Kiteflyer61 wrote:Selecting the entire mesh in object mode in blender and hitting Ctrl-A, then "Scale and rotation to object data" will reset the box to encompass the whole mesh perfectly. It resets the scale and rotation to 0 without moving anything. :D



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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby SGMonkey » 31 May 2013, 13:40

Tarius wrote:No, havok is not part of this model. In fact, the only time I usually see havok anywhere is with Oblivion meshes since they have physics and most meshes for MW do not.

Anyway, the stem for the plant is the cause of this. If you look in nifskope at the center z value/radius, you will see a value of over 400 when it should be like 10x less than that. Now, you could try editing the value right there directly, but I have no idea what sort of effect this will have. Did you make that mesh wolli? Eitherway, the center is for whatever reason very far off from where it should be and this is why the box is large.

Now, something else I see that is frequently on many of the models is unneeded properties. The stencil property is on a ton of stuff that doesnt need stencil; in this case, stencil is on the stems and you dont need to be able to see inside the stems. All stencil does is cause both sides of a poly to be rendered. What effect this has on resource usage I dont really know, but I am sure that it probably takes less to load and show a mesh without it. Alpha property is also a big problem in many meshes(not in this one).
I suppose what there should be is a tutorial on proper nif handling or something.

To mention something else, I dont know if it matters, but I see NCO 3 times in the ginseng when you could put a single NCO in there under the main NiNode. I am sure that at the least this would reduce loading times. I dont know if anyone knows this, but what is the purpose of the "Bytes Remaining" feature under the NCO? I saw on a mesh somewhere(think it was from MW) that it had a value of 7. I see on the ginseng that it has a value of zero. Apparently it doesnt matter?

No meshes in Morrowind use havok. The havok physics engine isnt implemented in morrowind.

Fixing the center point that is far away from zero is caused when exporting. When you export in 3ds max the export dialogue looks like this. You need to make sure zero and collapse transforms are ticked. Not sure how that translates to blender but that's whats causing it.

EDIT: Also, as far as making a simple bounding box goes its easy. In your preferred modelling package, you can create a simple cube (you can use a simple cylinder ), position that around the plant. It generally wants to be slightly smaller than the plan. Name the object whatever you want but i generally name it "COLLISION" to make things clearer. Then after export in nifskope. You add a parent node, "root collision node" This basically removes any calculating of collision from every other node in the file and only uses this. Then you can select the collision mesh again, right click, flags, tick hidden, click ok.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby SGMonkey » 02 Jun 2013, 09:15

Was wrong about the transforms. My mistake. What Mwgek said works. Although you can also just edit the working pivot for a more manageable way of doing it.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 16 Jun 2013, 09:42

Tarius wrote:Anyway, the stem for the plant is the cause of this. If you look in nifskope at the center z value/radius, you will see a value of over 400 when it should be like 10x less than that. Now, you could try editing the value right there directly, but I have no idea what sort of effect this will have. Did you make that mesh wolli? Eitherway, the center is for whatever reason very far off from where it should be and this is why the box is large.


Value/radius of what? All I can find is velocity, rotation and translation, and one of them are over 400 more than they should be.

And Kite's technice (ctrl+a scale/rotate to) is bullshit, and I can't get that to work.

Can somebody please just tell me how to make the ginseng less retarded:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/236 ... l/fuck.JPG
Because I can fricken figure it out, and I'm stating not to care either.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Mwgek » 16 Jun 2013, 13:53

If you upload the file I can check it out for you. Tried looking in the PC_data from Stirk, but that was not the same Ginseng as the one you show in the picture.

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Wollibeebee » 16 Jun 2013, 22:39

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/236 ... /ginseg.7z

Here's an otherwise finished (ie: I removed the stenciling! :P ) Ginseng.

Thanks MwGek

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Re: Construction Set Snapping Units and Proper Mesh Sizes

Postby Mwgek » 17 Jun 2013, 21:16

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0uta5gvxzjcr0fg/pc_flora_ginseng.nif

I centered the pivot points to 0,0,0. I'm not sure if this edit it's position so please check out if this makes the ginsengs float or bleed in the GC/strik. If so I'll upload the one without centered Pivot's. Also got rid of the Stencil property since there was no specular map or was I to enthusiastic?

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