Common houses in Cyrodiil

Public discussion of the Province: Cyrodiil project.
Worsas
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Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Worsas » 23 Mar 2011, 18:31

Are there intentions to reuse the common houses seen in Morrowind in Cyrodiil?

I have always thought it would add to the feeling of consistency if common houses would be seen in the northeastern part of Cyrodiil, as those houses in some way embody imperial presence along with the legion forts seen everywhere in Morrowind.

So as a player I expect to see those houses in Cyrodiil, since from my imagination those houses came from there. On the other hand I understand that the long time of imperial occupation in Morrowind might as well have resulted in an independent architectural style.

However, imo, it would be great to display the origin of those houses in Cyrodiil, possibly with a bunch of additional parts that you did not see in Morrowind.

Some of those common houses (the thatch-roofed ones) are labelled as Nord houses in the CS. Thus, since the architectural style of Cheydinhal is said to be influenced by both nord- and dunmer-culture, it would be an obvious option to have Cheydinhal something like an ever bigger Old Ebonheart?

Since I changed some of the common-retexes in TR_Data, one of their towers now resembles the peaky roofs in Bethesda's Cheydinhal a bit. A rather weak point, but honestly, I think that option should be taken into consideration,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g23/W ... mTower.jpg

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 23 Mar 2011, 18:47

Well, I personally want to the exiting com houses and the TR additions as our Colovian settlements, they can be retexed to match the quality of Cyrodiil but I think this is the best way to tie things in. I agree that some additional additions would be great to make the set a bit more diverse than in Morrowind which would give the settlements in Cyrodiil the feeling that they are the origins while the imperial settlements in Morrowind will clearly be newer and less established.

These Colovian settlements will be in the West though, not the East. The Colovians are who make up the legions and most of all Imperials seen outside of Cyrodiil. The Nibenese are more wizardy and not for moving across the continent and aren't as hearty as the Colovians. Therefore the settlements in Morrowind must be Colovian in design, so we should keep with that style and use all current com things as Colovian items in our Cyrodiil.

The Nibenese will get more fanciful structures and furniture to show their preference towards the arts. The Nibenese themselves will also be unique.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Worsas » 24 Mar 2011, 16:40

Retexes, imo, are rarely a good practise. I would even prefer keeping using vanilla textures but making new meshes that utilize them. If people want a more brilliant look, they should use a replacer of their choice. Finding and making new textures that really work and the tedious retexturing and renaming work in aftermath are more annoying than putting new meshes together using an existing texture-set. At least it's how i feel about it.

New province, new meshes. But possibly using vanilla textures if it adds to the feeling of consistency.
Last edited by Worsas on 25 Mar 2011, 07:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Scamp » 24 Mar 2011, 20:42

While I think there is a need to create new meshes for imperial houses, Worsas really got a point here. Why can't we mix vanilla stuff with it, or, like people said, use them in parts of Cyrodiil. The way the vanilla meshes look is how I always imagined Cyrodiil to look like. I think it makes zero sense not to use them again.
Also, I shall agree with Worsas here on the fact that this whole "Let's retexture everything" thing is a bit over the top. It's still Morrowind, and many people hate if a mod feels entirely differently just because of higher-res textures or whatever.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 02:01

Well the whole idea here is that this mod is higher res. I know ZackG will be wanting to make everything of higher quality textures. Now I personally am good with simply using the vanilla com set as is for the smaller Colovian settlements because they are what everyone has seen in Morrowind and the Imps of Morrowind are nearly 100% Colovian. Its a good way to tie it together. ZackG has made some nice textures for imperial housing though that looks like the vanilla only higher res so its not as it we would be seeing some completely different style. ZackG has a very good sense when it comes to texture use so if we are going to have everything upgraded I am more than comfortable with him doing so.

The Colovian housing of Western Cyrodiil is the ONLY thing I want to see done in this manner. It is the perfect tie to Morrowind and fits in perfectly. Then we will get to explore a similar yet totally different style with the smaller Nibenese settlements that seems familiar yet not at the same time. The Nibenese in this project are going to be one of the great new things we bring to Morrowind and Cyrodiil that is missing from TES and especially Oblivion.

Anyway I'm fine with simply using vanilla com for Colovia but I imagine ZackG will want better textures (in the same style) at the least so that works for me too. He is capable of doing it justice. Everything else will be all new!
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Worsas » 25 Mar 2011, 07:20

Well, maybe it would be the best to keep using the vanilla houses and the TR-variants of them and if people use textures replacer or mesh-replacers (plugin based or not), all colovian dwellings in Tamriel are in line with them. Would be the easiest and cleanest solution imo.

Otherwise rather model new meshes and put new textures on them and don't give a s** about what they look like in Morrowind. But honestly, retexes do not make people happy anymore, they are thrown after you whereever you get.

Edit: I've got to admit, I'm a bitch about this topic. Sorry for the aggressive tone.

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby ZackG » 25 Mar 2011, 13:45

The thing with "keeping consistency" or whatever between Morrowinds Imperial homes and the ones in Cyrodiil is, as has been discussed prior, Morrowinds Imperials are new settlers, building on a foreign frontier with the materials they can afford to either have shipped to them or find in Morrowind. They have to build things more basic and simple. While our random farmers and whatnot will follow this same thing loosely, our cities will have their own architecture that is unique.

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Scamp » 25 Mar 2011, 14:00

That is a very good point, ZackG. I like the idea of making the large cities have unique architecture, because I lile these province mods to be something new, unexpected. Filling the whole Cyrodiil with vanilla meshes would be dumb, even if retexed D: However, I don't think it's worth retexing stuff if we are only going to use the vanilla meshes in the Colovian parts, like SamirA said, which would make sense...or doesn't it?
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 16:23

I am all for using the vanilla plus TR-variants for the smaller Colovian settlements. Our major cities will have their own architecture yes, but there will be far more of these little places dotting the lands and a consistent style that tells you I'm in Colovia or I'm in Nibenay is what we want to achieve.

Now whether or not we decide to retexture these or not is not up to me, but doing so will not affect the consistency. As ZackG said the Imp settlements in Morrowind are newer and made by colonists. Their structures will remain basically the same, hence the continuation of the meshes in Cyrodiil, but the resources used to build them might not necessarily be the same so even if someone uses a replacer or not it still fits and will still be clearly imperial. As I have said I am all for the less work approach here but I see both sides. As long as the vanilla meshes are used for small Colovian settlements then I am fine with retexed or not. I do want to see some newer meshes that work with the vanilla set, in a similar style of your new towers Worsas, that will show that these Cyrodiil Colovians are more established and can do a few different things with their buildings that the Morrowind Colovians can't. Nothing too fancy, these are Colovians not Nibenese, but just a few more add-ons to both the exterior sets and interior tile-sets beyond the TR meshes.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Worsas » 25 Mar 2011, 18:38

You also have those hilarious colovian hats in Morrowind. :D

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 18:44

Haha yea, you know what we could do there is make it where no actual Colovians ever wear them, except for maybe some traditional ceremony or something, but they make them as souvenirs for people traveling through. That way we can distance ourselves from feeling the need to use such a ridiculously bad looking item. A finished suit of Colovian fur would be nice though and we can have it on a few select guys selling trinkets and souvenirs. That also adds a new shop possibility in many towns so we wont just have tons of redundant buildings in each city since they will be so huge. :)
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Tarius » 25 Mar 2011, 22:24

SamirA wrote:Haha yea, you know what we could do there is make it where no actual Colovians ever wear them, except for maybe some traditional ceremony or something, but they make them as souvenirs for people traveling through. That way we can distance ourselves from feeling the need to use such a ridiculously bad looking item. A finished suit of Colovian fur would be nice though and we can have it on a few select guys selling trinkets and souvenirs. That also adds a new shop possibility in many towns so we wont just have tons of redundant buildings in each city since they will be so huge. :)


Haha, yea, I always did think those hats were rediculous looking, not really bad per se, but definitly rediculous. Hmm, it would be interesting if a copious amount of these hats were involved in a quest of some sort. haha

On the buildings, I also agree on the need for a mix. Some same or retexturing(not much) could be done, but definitly new ones need to be there. But it would definitly help tie it to MW more.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 23:47

A large amount of those hats in a quest would be a great idea, I like it.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Tes96 » 27 Jul 2011, 04:18

Worsas wrote:Are there intentions to reuse the common houses seen in Morrowind in Cyrodiil?

I have always thought it would add to the feeling of consistency if common houses would be seen in the northeastern part of Cyrodiil, as those houses in some way embody imperial presence along with the legion forts seen everywhere in Morrowind.

So as a player I expect to see those houses in Cyrodiil, since from my imagination those houses came from there. On the other hand I understand that the long time of imperial occupation in Morrowind might as well have resulted in an independent architectural style.


I agree with that last sentence, although it is undetermined how long Pelagiad and Ebonheart have been established. But I would presume the architecture in TESIV to be much more true to how the Imperials would have constructed their buildings.

In Pelagiad, the Imperials who built that town used the resources that were readily available to them to build it. Same for Ebonheart. In Cyrodiil, they probably had similar resources and so the houses look somewhat the same but not identical.

I think some of the stock vanilla imperial buildings should be in a couple spots here and there in the eastern side of Cyrodiil, but overall, I'd expect all the architecture to look different from that of Morrowind's, despite the fact that they were built by the same race of people. They would have probably built their houses differently in Cyrodiil than they would have in Pelagiad and Ebonheart. (Am I missing any other Imperial establishment in Vvardenfell? I guess I could count Fort Moonmoth...)
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 27 Jul 2011, 04:44

Old Ebonheart in Morrowind has been around for quite some time and is made of the com houses. This will show that the architecture is consistent. Also when a culture moves into another place they do not quit building in their style. You can find Roman ruins in places as far away as England and they style is consistent with that of Rome itself.

In WESTERN Cyrodiil you will find that the architecture of towns is consistent with that of the Imperial settlements in Morrowind. The western areas of Cyrodiil are where the Colovians come from and these are the people who make up the legions and are the sort of people who would travel to a new province, unlike the Nibenese peoples of eastern Cyrodiil. City architecture will be unique in keeping with the style of Oblivion, but expect Chorrol in particular to look very much like the vanilla com set as well. Chorrol is the most Colovian of Cyrodiilic cities and will be very much like Old Ebonheart that you will see in TR.

Now for eastern Cyrodiil, where you expect similarities, there will be few vanilla buildings and meshes in general. This is where the flowery Nibenese live, and they are a people that are basically unseen in Morrowind. While they are closer to the border they are not the type to travel to lands in an attempt to expand the empire. The Nibenese do not partake in the military save for a few wizards here and there. The Nibenese and their lands and architecture will be unlike anything you expect from the Imperials by viewing them in other provinces. Expect to see some exotic things inspired by the Akaviri and the Mer of Tamriel when you venture east of the Imperial City.

We do not do things based on what you might assume to be the case, but rather from fact based studies and lore backed reasoning. Most of what I have stated is either from lore or a conclussion one would draw from lore and real world eventualities.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Tes96 » 27 Jul 2011, 07:19

Awesome input, SamirA! You know who would make a great addition to this team is Proweler. He's the lore overlord. I think he knows more about the lore than the devs do. Not that I'm insinuating you're not proficient in your lore. I wish I knew half as much as most of the people on here. I just need to read.

I'm confused on the difference between Colovians and Imperials.
And just for information, I was playing Daggerfall yesterday and when you pick your race during character creation, the map doesn't even say Cyrodiil, but "Imperial Province". Was the name "Cyrodiil" invented after TESII's release in 1996?
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 27 Jul 2011, 09:03

Colovians and the Nibenese are both Cyrodiils or, Imperials. You could think of them sort of like Great Houses for the Dunmer. The Colovians are a heartier people who are sort of the Redoran of Cyrodiil. They are the warrior class. The Nibenese are a more colorful people who would be more akin to the Telvanni and making good wizards. Neither comparisson is perfect as the political aspects of the Great Houses do not apply, but the fighting preferences of the peoples fit.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Scamp » 27 Jul 2011, 11:41

Tes96, I don't think the actual name of the province was invented after Daggerfall being released. In fact, Cyrodiil has always been the Imperial Province, and they just decided to call it that in the game or something.
Not that I'd know anything really, however this is also slightly offtopic.
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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby Helena » 27 Jul 2011, 12:52

SamirA wrote:While they are closer to the border they are not the type to travel to lands in an attempt to expand the empire. The Nibenese do not partake in the military save for a few wizards here and there.

I find this a bit extreme, to say the least. Yes, the Colovians probably make up the majority of the Legions, but there are going to be plenty of Nibenese soldiers as well. In fact, there have to be - because the two regions have been at war several times in the past, and how can you go to war if you don't have an army? Also, the Nibense are famous for trading, and at least some of their traders and merchants are likely to travel abroad for business purposes (I'm betting that a lot of the East Empire Company people are Nibenese, for example).

Otherwise, though, I agree with you. We do want to stress the cultural differences between Nibenese and Colovians in the way Oblivion didn't - your analogy to the Great Houses of Morrowind is a good example.

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Re: Common houses in Cyrodiil

Postby SamirA » 27 Jul 2011, 17:01

Well certainly there are exceptions here and there, but it is far easier to show this in a game by having the Military be Colovian and the Merchants be Nibenese which is what Bethesda has essentially been doing. Read the comprehensive lore guide we have posted and you will see some large paragraphs dedicated solely to the differences in the Nibenese and Colovians. Going by appearences alone any Nibenese you encounter in Morrowind are much different than the rest of their culture is said to be.

You are probably correct in thinking the EEC is made up of lots of Nibenese people, but I would wager that they stay mostly in the administrative side of things and hire the heartier Colovians to do the more manual works. The Grand Factor of the EEC would certainly be Nibenese, but Johnnicus Sailorus who simply delivers things on ships would be a Colovian.

As a side not, reading the Lore section is very useful. More people should do it and look to place input. I just rediscovered a small piece talking about rice fields in Cyrodiil so I must go add rice to plants we need made and ingredients modeled.
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