Sutch: What's the plan?

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ZackG
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby ZackG » 04 Jan 2011, 17:28

From what I understand they started to build Sutch in Oblivion and then deleted it because they weren't far enough on it. I think it was Vality who posted something to that extent on the official forums.

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SGMonkey
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SGMonkey » 04 Jan 2011, 17:33

So why not put it where it was originally intended?

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Re: What's the plan?

Postby DJGamer » 04 Jan 2011, 17:35

SGMonkey wrote:So why not put it where it was originally intended?


DJGamer wrote:Now we could relocate it to closer to where it is on the Redguard/Oblivion Demo map, but then we run into the following problems:

*


* Why isn't in Oblivion? (Granted the same question could be asked regarding Mir Corrup)
* Why is there a book in Oblivion that says Sutch is located in Hammerfell? Was the author mistaken?
* We lose something we can build a nice plot around (how Sutch got annexed to Hammerfell).
* The Kali Mes element I came up with could still exist since it might still have some proximity to Hammerfell, but it seems less probable.
* We can't have the cool idea of the town being built on the side of a mountain/hill.



We've had plans for Sutch since over two years ago, SWG has designed at least one model for it. There are a lot of people who would like to see Sutch included and I think the idea that it gets annexed into Hammerfell is a nice compromise and can produce an interesting plot.

On other thing-from the looks of the map Hammerfell is a HUGE province. And what we're putting Sutch in is a relatively TINY piece of land. Again, I don't think it'd be missed that badly.


I suppose it would ultimately boil down to what the people working on the Hammerfell province have to say about it.

We could place it right along the border and give it a similar story I suppose-make the fact that it still technically lies within what should still be the "Imperial Borders" at the time of Oblivion a matter of convenience and in the interests of compatibility. I don't know what that'll mean for the proposed mountainside geographical layout however-although again we might find an area nearby where this idea could still be feasible. I found a nice-looking topographical-type map of Cyrodiil on a Google Image search but unfortunately the actual image is gone now. :(

It's here: http://bit.ly/d2hPl3

Again, you can only see the "preview" image, when you go to see the full-size one (which would've been decently-sized too), it's a broken link.

I suppose I'll have to break out Vality's 3D map. lol
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby ZackG » 04 Jan 2011, 17:37

Well SGMonkey, you know who is working on Hammerfell..could you be the voice in between us and whoever is working on Hammerfell and ask them what their plans are and what they think about our plans so that we might know and they can keep their secrecy.

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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:38

DJGamer wrote:We could place it right along the border and give it a similar story I suppose-make the fact that it still technically lies within what should still be the "Imperial Borders" at the time of Oblivion a matter of convenience and in the interests of compatibility.


This, I like this proposition. It solves nearly every conceivable problem with the place and if it is right on the border almost no one would recognize that it is in Cyrodiil circa Oblivion. Especially if we execute the story properly and create an interesting mish-mash of Hemmerfell-esque architecture and Imperial we could have a very unique place that is technically in our province/but not in our province that adds to that limbo feel of hey is this Hammerfell? Or is this Cyrodiil thing I think we are shooting for with what i have read on our Sutch discussions while trying to get myself up to date on the goings on of this project.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby DJGamer » 04 Jan 2011, 17:38

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that may be a good idea-here's a screen capture of a video that was on IGN at some point which shows Sutch's original location on the map somewhat: http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/ ... cture2.png

I'd really like to find the original video though in case there's a better frame in it that's shows more of the Sutch location. :/

I'm also looking at Vality's 3D map right now as a topographical reference to see where might be an ideal location geographically speaking.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SGMonkey » 04 Jan 2011, 17:40

You've got to remember one thing. The map in Oblivion is much smaller than it should have been. Whereas the maps I made are to scale with Morrowind. So they are in fact bigger, making the cities in cyrodiil further apart

This is a screen of the locations of Sutch, Anvil and Kvatch
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... -54-78.jpg

Therefore sutch can be where it was originally intended surely?

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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:41

Well the thing is even if we are only in that general area by the Hammerfell border who is gonna say we are wrong? Sutch currently does not exist in concrete form anywhere so as long as we are close even the most hardcore lore-hound would be hard pressed to say we are far off.

SamirA Edit: due to being Ninja'd. @SGMonkey. Is that Island out there Stirk? Like the one TR built as a plugin for Oblivion? @DJ do we have plans for this place? Stirk was based on some very tiny shreds of lore so we could have some fun with that place and make it unique as well. No need to be like the TR version as it's not official.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby DJGamer » 04 Jan 2011, 17:46

Alright, I've got a few maps, screenshots. As SG_Monkey said we're working with a larger area now although unfortunately since Hammerfell's landmass isn't visible in the screenshot it's a little difficult to figure out where exactly everything's intended to be relative to everything else. lol

Here's my basic ideas:

Sutch Map #1:
Image

Sutch Map #2:
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_map02.jpg

I've marked three different locations-the ? is mainly there because I recall Vality talking about a little area that appears as if it were meant for a town location-I'm not sure if that's exactly it.

It's a bit difficult to extrapolate Sutch's "intended location" but the southernmost one seems to be about where they meant it to be. The really difficult thing is that they've obviously reworked the geography quite a bit between the maps so the location of "landmarks", particularly rivers and such, are far different-for instance I can't line Sutch up both with Kvatch and the Brena River. If we go by the "tile screen" map, Sutch is actually a bit away from the river, if we go more relative to its location from Kvatch and Anvil it should be much closer. I think the Oblivion mod that adds Sutch has it place up against the river, though. Also, if we're going with the "mountainside" theme then it'd be better closer to the river.

Here's some screenshots that show more of the mountains an such around the different locations:

Hammerfell Location:
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_hammerfell01.jpg
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_hammerfell02.jpg

Obviously, this is ideal for the "mountainside" idea since it's quite a high mountain-perhaps however it's a bit too mountainous. Since the drawing of Sutch on the title screen map appears to show an accompanying lake/pond, that would be a bit difficult to achieve up on a mountain-one part is just technical of course (having a lake at a high altitude), it would probably need to be some kind of "crater lake" geographically-speaking.

Cyrodiil Location #1:

-Facing East-
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_cyrodiil-face_east.jpg

-Facing West-
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_cyrodiil-face_west.jpg

There are some mountains here but they appear comparatively shorter. It'd probably make more sense to have it on the "east face" (is that the correct term? Technically it's the west SIDE but it's also the side you look at if you're facing east), that way it would be closer to Hammerfell and also be "facing" it.

Cyrodiil Alternate Location:
http://cyrodiil.deejaygamer.com/sutch_cyrodiil-alt_location.jpg

This location just looks a little better for if we're doing the whole "mountainside" concept. The terrain here seems to fit a bit better with the whole "tiered" concept. I suppose we could modify the terrain a little no mater where we actually put the place so it might not really matter and again these maps show Cyrodiil at Oblivion's scale and not so much ours.
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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:48

I like the alternate location and since our scale is larger we can surely pull something off. In fact we could cause the river to branch where we intend Sutch to be and it still be on the western shore of the river so if anyone knows the Oblivion version of Cyrodiil front and back they will still think this to be across the border in Hammerfell because it is on the other side of the river that is the border (it just wont be as far across as they think), just and idea.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby ZackG » 04 Jan 2011, 17:48

Just a thought, what if we made Sutch in its original position inside of Cyrodiil near Anvil and Kvatch, but we still made it Hammerfell property. As if it was its own city-state but under Hammerfell jurisdiction?

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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:49

Originally posted by ZXT012

Looking at DJ's maps, I'm more inclined to place Sutch on the original location. Nearby there is even Fort Sutch so, to me, it makes more sense that location rather than the altenative one.
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SGMonkey
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SGMonkey » 04 Jan 2011, 17:50

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... -42-03.jpg
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... -53-68.jpg

Just quickly added a very early version of Hammerfell to my current wip Cyrodiil map. As you may notice, its far from finished. The area just north of Sutch (as it is marked on previous maps) needs to be raised and the mountains on the border need lowering somewhat.

But i just thought i'd post these quick for you to take a look

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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SGMonkey » 04 Jan 2011, 17:51

ZXT012 wrote:Looking at DJ's maps, I'm more inclined to place Sutch on the original location. Nearby there is even Fort Sutch so, to me, it makes more sense that location rather than the altenative one.


Thankyou :P

Rats! Sorry for double post, meant to copy and paste it

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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:52

Originally posted by ZXT012

Just quickly added a very early version of Hammerfell to my current wip Cyrodiil map. As you may notice, its far from finished. The area just north of Sutch (as it is marked on previous maps) needs to be raised and the mountains on the border need lowering somewhat.

But i just thought i'd post these quick for you to take a look


I've seen your pics. We could do as SamirA said and create another branch of the river where Sutch should end up and rise the land pretty sharply so to create the cliff. In this way every problem should be solved.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby DJGamer » 04 Jan 2011, 17:53

I saw this in a thread about Sutch:

They gave an interview awhile back stating that they had a whole quest line that was more politically driven than any of the other ones. They said that the end of the quest line would result in the player becoming the new duke of Colovia presumably replacing the Duke who died in Kvatch. They said that they removed the quest line because they felt like it was too much like quest lines in Morrowind and they felt like it would end up being somewhat stale. Personally I think it would have been cool.


From: http://boards.ign.com/elder_scrolls/b5312/158920294/p1/

Obviously we couldn't do that verbatim but it might inspire some ideas maybe.
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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:54

Originally posted by ZXT012

Obviously we couldn't do that verbatim but it might inspire some ideas maybe.


Maybe at the end of Sutch's questline the player becomes the ruler of County Sutch and he has to decide if the town remains in Cyrodiil or become part of Hammerfell.
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SamirA
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SamirA » 04 Jan 2011, 17:54

I kinda like that idea ZXT.
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Re: What's the plan?

Postby ZackG » 04 Jan 2011, 17:55

lol it'd be funny if we made the player the Duke of Kvatch.

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Re: What's the plan?

Postby SGMonkey » 04 Jan 2011, 17:55

So has everyone turned round to thinking that Sutch should be just north of Anvil and west of Kvatch, instead of being in Hammerfell?

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