New Heads

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Wollibeebee
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Re: New Heads

Postby Wollibeebee » 06 Sep 2011, 02:23

can't help but agree with Helen^

also, just thinking about it... but you know how there's colvians and nibense? what if we made different hair and faces for each? so it was still the same race. like:

pc_C_hair_01
and
pc_NB_hair_01
same for heads.

and that way there could be a change in appearance.. without you lots plan of "having a separate race" that i once read.

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SamirA
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Re: New Heads

Postby SamirA » 06 Sep 2011, 02:46

that is the plan wolli... I hadn't thought about how to name them yet, but essentially that was the plan.
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Wollibeebee
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Re: New Heads

Postby Wollibeebee » 06 Sep 2011, 08:48

ah, cool!

also.. we could ask mark how he did that thing.. ya know? he made the bones in a BB mesh bigger, which edited the NPC's somehow... perhaps colovians could be broader or something?

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Lady Nerevar
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Re: New Heads

Postby Lady Nerevar » 06 Sep 2011, 13:34

Helena wrote:Sorry if I sound overly critical - I don't mean to be

I wouldn't be posting if I didn't want criticism. I had little idea how far to take these, so your suggestions are good. I'll whip up a new texture with an alpha'd hairline and see how it works with the mesh.

In terms of culturally specific hair and faces, I agree. I had intended the more asian (/indian) looking ones for the Niben, with the more European or Morrowind styled ones for the Colovian. However, I also think that is is important not to overemphasize the distinction. Cyrodiil is not two completely distinct racial groups - each city and region has its own subcultures (notice the many illustrations in the PGE1), and at the same time those subcultures interbreed. In other words, I'd go with a few really Colovian heads, and a few really Nibenese heads, and keep the rest a sliding scale between. Tattoos and other facial markings would be a good way to change the faces to cultures without changing the actual face. I'd also advocate unique heads for really important NPCs, like guild leaders or counts.

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Helena
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 06 Sep 2011, 19:17

Lady Nerevar wrote:In terms of culturally specific hair and faces, I agree. I had intended the more asian (/indian) looking ones for the Niben, with the more European or Morrowind styled ones for the Colovian. However, I also think that is is important not to overemphasize the distinction. Cyrodiil is not two completely distinct racial groups - each city and region has its own subcultures (notice the many illustrations in the PGE1), and at the same time those subcultures interbreed. In other words, I'd go with a few really Colovian heads, and a few really Nibenese heads, and keep the rest a sliding scale between. Tattoos and other facial markings would be a good way to change the faces to cultures without changing the actual face. I'd also advocate unique heads for really important NPCs, like guild leaders or counts.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I've always imagined the Nibenese as looking somewhat 'Mediterranean' (in keeping with the Roman Empire theme), so perhaps we can have some heads like that as well. They would provide some continuity between the two types: still European-looking, but darker-skinned than your average Colovian.

Changing the body types would be pretty much impossible without making the Nibenese a separate race, which I really don't want to do. It would be a nightmare for all sorts of practical reasons, but I also agree with Lady N's point above: they're the same race, whatever the cultural differences. We don't want to over-emphasise the difference between them.

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Re: New Heads

Postby DJGamer » 06 Sep 2011, 21:22

Well, it could be a separate, but unplayable race-though I don't think I've read enough to know exactly why you'd need a separate body type. All I can think of is for body tattoos perhaps-though that could potentially be "cheated" using special clothing meshes (though from that point we might have to work out a script to make them unlootable?). The other advantage of trying to do body tattoos via clothing would be having a variety of them without having to have a dozen different unplayable races for each tattoo design.

They don't necessarily have to be unlootable but the obvious problem would be how the heck do you "remove" someone's tattoos and "wear" them on yourself? :scamp:
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Re: New Heads

Postby Worsas » 06 Sep 2011, 21:27

Now that I have seen the faces in environment of the original game, they already look a lot better to me. The second girl from the right has a cool nose btw :D

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Re: New Heads

Postby Wollibeebee » 06 Sep 2011, 22:24

hmmm... perhaps we should come up with a final arrangement for what each group looks like? i'd say... hard, rough faces, and black hair for colovians. and some 'Mediterranean style with lighter hair for nibense.. not a huge difference, but enough? perhaps we should make a poll-topic? :P

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Helena
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 07 Sep 2011, 00:13

DJGamer wrote:Well, it could be a separate, but unplayable race-though I don't think I've read enough to know exactly why you'd need a separate body type.

The basic reason is that height and weight settings for each race apply to all members of that race; there's no room for variation. I believe someone did find a way to alter those settings for individual NPCs using scripting, but it would be immensely complicated (and would also interfere with any other scripts we wanted to place on those characters). I'd oppose making them separate races on grounds of lore as well as practicality: the vanilla game refers to the entire race as 'Imperial', not 'Colovian', and they have bonuses to typical Nibenese attributes (speechcraft and mercantile) as well as the warrior skills. Technically there should be similar physical differences between, say, the Redorans (hardened warrior types) and the Telvanni (squishy wizards), but it's not like they're portrayed as separate races in-game.

Body tattoos would be possible to implement as clothing, but they'd get in the way of any other clothing we wanted to put on those characters. Also, as you say, they'd need to be made non-lootable somehow. For this reason I think we should stick to facial tatoos for the most part, perhaps with some exceptions if we find a way to make clothes 'invisible' to the player.

In terms of looks, the vanilla game portrays the Imperials as generally dark-haired (brown or black), or occasionally red-haired. I'd say that the Nibenese should in general have black hair and darker complexions, while the Colovians have more variation (due to more interbreeding with Nords, Bretons etc.) That's just a personal opinion, though.

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Lady Nerevar
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Re: New Heads

Postby Lady Nerevar » 07 Sep 2011, 01:12

Colovians - more Nordic blood, hence more Nordic looking. Lighter hair and skin. Lighter shades of Mediterranean, Germanic.
Nibenese - Nedic in blood from various tribes. Darker shades of Mediterranean, South-east Asian, Mexican.

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Re: New Heads

Postby DJGamer » 07 Sep 2011, 05:01

Well I'd say the whole point of having body tattoos on a character would be to have them visible to the player-if they can't be seen there really isn't a point to it, is there? One possible solution (if we can make them non-lootable, again) would be to set up part of a race-appropriate BB body mesh as a cuirass, this would probably be done only for special characters, though-and it would almost certainly mean a total BB requirement lest the character chest not match up with the rest of the body.

Sorry that this is going a it off-topic.
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 07 Sep 2011, 17:56

Special characters are probably the way to go, yeah. I'll ask around on the Bethesda forums about making inventory items invisible and/or non-lootable.

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Re: New Heads

Postby DJGamer » 07 Sep 2011, 21:25

Though I'm also pretty sure it may be possible to do this with alpha masks as well with "skin tight"-type clothing. I'm not 100% sure but I seem to recall seeing some clothing that has transparent elements to it.
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 09 Sep 2011, 19:43

It could totally be done as transparent clothing, but there are various problems with that (see this post I just made, for example). Also, I asked at the official forums about making inventory items invisible/non-lootable, and the answer is basically "no, it can't be done." So yeah, there are ways to implement body tattoos, but I think we're going to have to sacrifice a certain amount of realism to do it.

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dirnae
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Re: New Heads

Postby dirnae » 09 Sep 2011, 20:43

You can remove items from the NPC's inventory after it dies, AFAIK.
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Helena
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 09 Sep 2011, 21:41

But that way, any tattoos worn by an NPC would disappear on their death. :shock:

There are a couple of ways we could handle it. 1: we could make a separate race with a tattooed body, for a very few characters. Making all the Nibenese a separate race would be a massive, massive headache - it would break dialogue functions such as SameRace for Imperial players, as well as the normal disposition bonus towards characters of the same race, and the affected characters would lose all the dialogue (and voice greetings) filtered for Imperials. Plus that way they would ALL have to have identical body tattoos.

2: we could make a few characters (Ancestor Monks?) disappear on death, Obi-Wan Kenobi style. I dunno, perhaps they could turn into moths or something? I'm sure it would be possible to script. Just get Lady N to cook up some lore, and away we go :)

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Re: New Heads

Postby DJGamer » 09 Sep 2011, 22:00

I know for a fact that it could be done in Oblvion (I.E. The Aureals and Mazken's armor in Shivering Isles). I wonder if it could be done with MWSE, though-in which case the characters would only have tatoos in a MWSE-enhanced version of P:C.

We could possible set up Ancestor Moths as creatures with custom death animations-that would be cool, although there'd e no reason to make their bodies unlootable since the tattoos would obviously be part of the mesh but still it'd be pretty freakin' cool.
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Re: New Heads

Postby Tarius » 10 Sep 2011, 00:20

In regards to this, I once tried looking at a way to make an item appear in an NPC's inventory upon death but found that doing it widespread is seemingly hard and not apparent in how it would be done.
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Helena
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Re: New Heads

Postby Helena » 10 Sep 2011, 11:34

DJGamer wrote:We could possible set up Ancestor Moths as creatures with custom death animations-that would be cool, although there'd e no reason to make their bodies unlootable since the tattoos would obviously be part of the mesh but still it'd be pretty freakin' cool.

We could, yeah - but in that case it would probably be easier just to make them a separate race. They wouldn't get custom death animations, but those wouldn't really be needed anyway if the tattoos are part of their body mesh. Or they could be faked with scripting - e.g. to show them 'turning into moths', just have them drop some kind of misc item showing moths flying around, then disable the body:

Code: Select all
if ( OnDeath == 1 )
     Drop, "PC_moths_flying_around", 1
     Disable
endif

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Re: New Heads

Postby DJGamer » 11 Sep 2011, 02:44

We're REALLY getting off-topic here but I'd still have to argue that it would probably be just as easy if not slightly easier to do it as a creature with custom death animations-simply because we'd have to create the "death animation" with the moths anyway-and as a creature we could do some animation-type things with the body as well perhaps, though probably not quite as cool-looking as what I'm imagining in my head due to engine limitations. It would probably be more like a "dust cloud" with moths flying out of it.
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