Bodies and faces - the imperial race

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Worsas
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Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 12 Jul 2014, 05:13

I would like to suggest using the imperial race rather than two custom races for the following reasons:

-The imperial voice greeting are attached to the imperial race. We could sure, copy the entire range of imperial greetings. We'll probably have to for the legion specific voice greetings anyway, but we could just as much save us the bulk, if there are other good reasons to stick with the vanilla race.
- Dialogue and race relations with the player imperial would have to be transferred aswell.
- The relatively banal idea that the imperials should be visually consistent between the provinces.

Our Colovians are currently using westlys faces. I personally like them for the most part but people may be different. Some may want to stick with vanilla, others may use different facesets, mackoms, for example or better faces. Even though, we'll have to extent the range of faces, it would create a more consistent game for most people just to have the standard range of imperial faces looking alike across the complete game. It is a tradeoff though, because, apparently, the face replacer may visually conflict with the additional faces we'll have.

What about body tatooes and bb-dependent clothing then? My opinion: It does not matter.
We would have to create copies of all races using BB to make sure the body tatooes and the clothing will work under all circumstances. I do not think the Nibenese will be the only race wearing nibenese clothing (the same really for their tatoos). I do not consider that a serious option myself. Rather declare BB as a requirement and have it up to the people. That just seems to make more sense to me. At SHOTN we have circumvented the need for separate races so far, even for the Reachmen, which is even a much more debatable thing than the imperial subraces.

Though, agreed, both ways of handling the race have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm just bringing this up, as the npcing is just before us and we should maybe get this settled in a reasonable way now before the npcs themselves are added to the game.

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Saint_Jiub
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Saint_Jiub » 12 Jul 2014, 05:57

I agree. I definitely see some value in having Nibeneans as a separate race but it just seems more trouble than it's worth. To me, it's along the lines of saying that Redoran and Telvanni should be separate races.

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Scamp
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Scamp » 12 Jul 2014, 19:50

Dialogue, architecture, etc should make differences between the two cultures more than obvious to players, I think.
Image

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Infragris
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Infragris » 13 Jul 2014, 18:47

I'm very much in favor of this, though we will have to think about the practical implementation of culturally-appropriate dialogue. Dialogue filters are easy to implement based on race, location or faction, but location is a bit too imprecise (Colovians in Nibenese regions and vice versa), and an npc can only be a member of one faction at a time.

Can dialogue filters recognize which head or hair mesh an npc is using? That would be a very simple way around these problems. Alternatively, we could add specific token spells to npcs of certain cultures or factions, and have dialogue detect them.

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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 13 Jul 2014, 18:54

At SHOTN and TR, npcs have a script with certain variables assigned to them, so they are not dependent on the place they are in for such kind of dialogue. That's how reachmen are distinguished from Bretons aswell, I think. I'm not sure, though. Will have to check.

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SamirA
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby SamirA » 13 Jul 2014, 19:07

Yes, get Yeti over here to discuss some NPC stuff. We need his brain around here for these things.
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Worsas
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 14 Jul 2014, 09:35

I just came to think that we should maybe keep the Nibenese as a separate race, if they are supposed to be significantly darker in skin color than Colovians. Otherwise the heads will look weird as they are placed on bodies with lighter skin color.

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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Ald_Moth » 14 Jul 2014, 10:19

I too think it would make more sense for darker skinned Nibense to be present, especially given how we are talking about tropical climate. Though, I think as a slight circumvention, we could use head options that don't create as much of a radical divide in skin tones, as I think Westly's are a little too light and anglo-saxon. I think MacKom's heads should be considered an option.

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Infragris
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Infragris » 14 Jul 2014, 10:25

Are they actually described anywhere as having a darker skin, though? The tattoos could do a lot to darken the overall skin tone, and they might look better on a pale skin in the first place.

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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 14 Jul 2014, 16:43

The idea of their skin being darker, if only slightly, just seems to be present in peoples minds. I thought one of our book texts referred to a dark-skinned niben-woman. I thought it was one of St. Jiubs texts, but I cannot find the line anymore. It may be one of the others.

Is there any hint if one of the imperials in MW is Nibenese? Nibenese people in later sequels including Skyrim always were light-skinned, at least.

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SamirA
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby SamirA » 14 Jul 2014, 17:00

I don't see why we would do this. This is not a separate race, but rather a different region. I saw someone liken it to making the great houses separate races. The whole reason behind these two being made separate was because of the tattooing that we wanted to show off as well as allowing us to give them some slightly different traits to better show the distinction between these groups, but they are still the same people.
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Infragris
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Infragris » 14 Jul 2014, 17:17

Worsas wrote:Is there any hint if one of the imperials in MW is Nibenese?


Not really. We can assume most members of the Legion and the towns associated with it are Colovian, while merchants, East Empire employees and members of the Imperial Cult are mostly Nibenese. The colonization of Vvardenfell seems to be a Colovian affair for the most part, which isn't that surprising: the Colovians are known for their frontier spirit, after all.

As a matter of fact, this is something we could address in-game: when Vvardenfell was first opened to the people, the Imperial government primarily encouraged Colovians to move there, so that they would have solid Imperial support and a source of Legion soldiers. We could place old, worn-down "Help spread the Virtues of Empire in Heathen Lands!" pamphlets in the cities and such. It would also give us an excuse to have a ship service between Anvil and Vvardenfell.

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TerrifyingDaedricFoe
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 18 Jul 2014, 21:50

Infragris wrote:Dialogue filters are easy to implement based on race, location or faction, but location is a bit too imprecise (Colovians in Nibenese regions and vice versa), and an npc can only be a member of one faction at a time.

This.

My rationale for the racial split can be found here.
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 19 Jul 2014, 12:50

Now we probably just have to look what is the greater evil: Duplicating a lot of voice dialogue and coping with possible inconsistencies with the original imperials or having a large number of scripts to account for many different constellations (subrace, county, etc). I am still of the opinion that the script approach makes more sense here and it is used by TR and SHOTN aswell, which again would mean that any cross-development would be easier.

Though, one advantage of the two-races-approach would be that Nibenese could keep different body proportions and a different skillset. This again involves the question of how strongly different they should be from other imperials apart from cultural aspects. With Ald-Ma-Cyrods latest concept art we have already taken a path where the broader imperial physics are accounted for. Ultimately this is a thing where the two questions "What is interesting?" and "What feels right?" may be needed to be considered against each other.

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Infragris
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Infragris » 19 Jul 2014, 14:02

With the two races solution we run the risk of building an entire Imperial Province without any actual Imperials in it. I think this discussion is losing sight of what Cyrodiil is in general: the heartland of a unified and cosmopolitan Imperial civilization. The Nibenese have a unique culture and visual aesthetic, but they are ultimately still Imperials in mind and body - they lie at the very center of Imperial civilization. Giving them unique body proportions and skillset defeats the whole point of them being an essential part of the Imperial culture, making them something that is not an Imperial. It's even worse for Colovians, as there is no real physical difference between them and vanilla Imperials: we'd just be adding a race as a technical hack, which is very "moddy", for lack of a better word. Working with scripts is somewhat more difficult, but it maintains a technical consistency with the Imperials in the main game, which is important if we want to present this province as a credible expansion and elaboration of what we saw on Vvardenfell.

Ultimately, any heavy use of a Nibenese race is still far in the future, save perhaps a merchant or emigrant here and there (who can easily be race-switched later on). I suggest we drop this discussion, save for the parts that are relevant to Colovia, as any effort going into this will only come at the expense of more urgent matters.

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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 19 Jul 2014, 14:31

Infragris wrote:With the two races solution we run the risk of building an entire Imperial Province without any actual Imperials in it. I think this discussion is losing sight of what Cyrodiil is in general: the heartland of a unified and cosmopolitan Imperial civilization. The Nibenese have a unique culture and visual aesthetic, but they are ultimately still Imperials in mind and body - they lie at the very center of Imperial civilization. Giving them unique body proportions and skillset defeats the whole point of them being an essential part of the Imperial culture, making them something that is not an Imperial. It's even worse for Colovians, as there is no real physical difference between them and vanilla Imperials: we'd just be adding a race as a technical hack, which is very "moddy", for lack of a better word. Working with scripts is somewhat more difficult, but it maintains a technical consistency with the Imperials in the main game, which is important if we want to present this province as a credible expansion and elaboration of what we saw on Vvardenfell.

Ultimately, any heavy use of a Nibenese race is still far in the future, save perhaps a merchant or emigrant here and there (who can easily be race-switched later on). I suggest we drop this discussion, save for the parts that are relevant to Colovia, as any effort going into this will only come at the expense of more urgent matters.

I feel exactly the same way. I've only been trying to involve the other points of view (if there are still any) somehow.

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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 13 Aug 2014, 20:03

Jiub recently proposed removing our old faces and I agree that some of them do not fit very well.

Therefore I have quickly taken galleries of all faces of each gender so we can consider them all in context with each other.

These are our nibenese male faces:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsm_1.jpg

These are our general male faces:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsm_2.jpg

The new male faces created by me and jiub (Colovian):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsm_3.jpg


These are our nibenese female faces:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsf_1.jpg

these are our general female faces:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsf_2.jpg

the new female faces created by me and jiub (Colovian):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... adsf_3.jpg


I currently have to decide, if the old faces will be kept or if some of the old faces need to get removed. I would at least get rid of two faces on headsm_2.jpg, myself.

Beyond that I do not know whether those indian-esque nibenese faces match our idea of their visual appearance. Some of the nibenese women could probably just aswell act as general imperial females.

I would like to hear what you others think.

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Infragris
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Infragris » 13 Aug 2014, 20:13

For the Nibenese, we have to have a decent discussion with some solid concept art and sources of inspiration before we commit to a certain style of tattoo designs. Right now, we're just throwing things out there at random, making the whole thing meaningless. Tattoo culture is possibly the most solid and well-known thing about the Nibenese, we can't afford to mess it up.

Worsas
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby Worsas » 13 Aug 2014, 21:15

Right now, we're just throwing things out there at random, making the whole thing meaningless.

Nothing is being thrown out at the moment, at least not with regards to nibenese faces. Those have been in PC_Data for a while by now.

It would probably be the easiest to exclude all of the old faces and store them somewhere else for later reconsideration. Then we could set up the IDs for our faces from scratch. Would that be okay with everyone?

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SamirA
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Re: Bodies and faces - the imperial race

Postby SamirA » 13 Aug 2014, 23:24

I'm good with removing them for now, there is no doubt that almost all of them need at least some work before they should be included while some should probably be removed entirely.
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