Necromancy

Discussion of Elder Scrolls lore and how it will be used in Province: Cyrodiil.
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TerrifyingDaedricFoe
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Re: Necromancy

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 03 Mar 2012, 17:17

It could be a simpler quest, where a 'normal' necromancer wants you to stop the bunch of kids who are running around scaring everyone and making him look bad.
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Tarius wrote:This is entirely a matter of the Bethstapo that will burst in, yell STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM, and C&D us to death if we violate copyright.
Haha, bethstapo.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Lord Andres Indoril » 03 Mar 2012, 18:01

We can't forget the community man idea we had on IRC.
Model citizen, heart of the community, helpful all around, necromancer.
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tarius » 03 Mar 2012, 19:00

Lord Andres Indoril wrote:We can't forget the community man idea we had on IRC.
Model citizen, heart of the community, helpful all around, necromancer.

Too cliche. This "twist" has been used time and again in movies and games. I mean as soon as I am "hired" by someone now now-a-days, I am always inclined to suspect they are actually the problem or something and I am typically not far off.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Lord Andres Indoril » 03 Mar 2012, 22:43

There is no twist. He is openly a necromancer. As well as all the other traits.
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tarius » 03 Mar 2012, 23:08

Lord Andres Indoril wrote:There is no twist. He is openly a necromancer. As well as all the other traits.

Oh, well if the person is open about it.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby ZackG » 03 Mar 2012, 23:45

Helena wrote:There are a few books in MW mentioning the perception of necromancy in the West:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Corpse_Preparation_v_I
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ancestors_and_the_Dunmer
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Arkay_the_Enemy

From this I get the impression that while necromancy is legal in Cyrodiil, and grudgingly tolerated, most people still find it pretty abhorrent. Bear in mind that whatever the potential uses of necromancy, we're still basically talking about reanimating corpses to use as slaves. It's also in direct contradiction to the teachings of Arkay, one of the official gods of the Empire.

So while you may get a few necromancers in powerful positions, I very much doubt that it's officially recognised to the point of having necromancy 'schools' or necromancers in the military. I imagine most of them would carry out their studies quietly in private, even the ones working for the Imperial authorities. The only possible exception is the Mages' Guild, where we know there was a sub-faction of necromancers who were eventually expelled by Traven. That could make for some interesting quests regarding the internal politics of the Cyrodiil guild.

...and no, no skull robes, for crying out loud. :roll: Unless we want to have some dumb kids who pretend they're necromancers but are really just the Cyrodiilic equivalent of teenage Goths. That might be quite amusing actually...




While it may be against the teachkngs of arkay we shouldnt necessarily use that to enforce its unpopularity. Technically, according to the old testament women cant talk about god without having their head covered and they cant leave their home during certain times of the month. But many times in religion when politics and socialnlife intercede certain commands, these rules are pushed to the back. The new testament as well goes over loving your enemy and is riddled with ignored antiwar sentiment but even still one of the most identified christian countries in te world te us has a huge military. I think that tere should be a growing necromancy group in cyrodiil and thats why it is outlawed in oblivion. Because it becomes a problem. Maybe some politic gaffes lead to passionate calls to end it.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby SamirA » 04 Mar 2012, 00:10

Perhaps we can gear our mages guild quests to the removal of necromancy. The higher up quests can be about some necromancers who have taken things too far or something like that and it ends up creating a backlash within the guild.
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tarius » 04 Mar 2012, 00:49

Things such as bodies getting mixed up and instead of poor farmer servius, the necromancers end up with a relative of Occato or something.
This is an interesting thought, perhaps there could be a false flag type event where people posing as necromancers do something to make public opinion of necromancy really ill.
This could be one of the news stories that circulate and there could be a quest centered around what happened. While everyone would hear what a terrible event it was, not very many hear that it was staged, thus making public opinion worse on it.(kinda funny/sad, this is the exact playbook the current media uses in various cases; make a claim and then when called out on it, publish a retraction in some obscure area of their web site which then gets buried after a day or so)
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Helena
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Helena » 04 Mar 2012, 12:59

ZackG wrote:While it may be against the teachkngs of arkay we shouldnt necessarily use that to enforce its unpopularity. Technically, according to the old testament women cant talk about god without having their head covered and they cant leave their home during certain times of the month. But many times in religion when politics and socialnlife intercede certain commands, these rules are pushed to the back. The new testament as well goes over loving your enemy and is riddled with ignored antiwar sentiment but even still one of the most identified christian countries in te world te us has a huge military. I think that tere should be a growing necromancy group in cyrodiil and thats why it is outlawed in oblivion. Because it becomes a problem. Maybe some politic gaffes lead to passionate calls to end it.

I'm not saying we should show necromancers as unpopular just because they defy Arkay's teachings; I'm saying that the evidence suggests they are unpopular, and Arkay's teachings are presumably one reason for that. That said, your idea of a growing necromancy group is a good one. Perhaps the pro-necromancy faction within the Mages' Guild is becoming increasingly assertive and powerful (tied into the fact that some, though not all of them, follow Mannimarco) and this leads to a backlash. (It would also allow the player to support the necromancers in the MG quests, while explaining why necromancy ends up getting banned regardless.)

One thing to bear in mind, though: Necromancy has not actually been outlawed in Oblivion, only banned by the Mages' Guild. You can still technically be a necromancer outside the Guild, as long as you don't do anything illegal (like murdering people or using black soul gems). We could show some 'independent' necromancers who choose to stay outside the Guild and its politics, precisely because they realise it's all going to end badly.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Praedator » 04 Mar 2012, 13:12

A Necromancer in the wild, could survive necromancing by hiding in a cave, luring in adventurers, and fill black soulgems. Noone will ever know the path of those adventurers, though they will be missed after a while :)

There will be stories in the villages about such caves, but also about riches to be found exploring.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 04 Mar 2012, 13:13

Helena wrote:We could show some 'independent' necromancers who choose to stay outside the Guild and its politics, precisely because they realise it's all going to end badly.

I agree, and there should be independent mages of other disciplines as well.
SamirA wrote:
Tarius wrote:This is entirely a matter of the Bethstapo that will burst in, yell STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM, and C&D us to death if we violate copyright.
Haha, bethstapo.

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Helena
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Helena » 04 Mar 2012, 13:22

Praedator wrote:A Necromancer in the wild, could survive necromancing by hiding in a cave, luring in adventurers, and fill black soulgems. Noone will ever know the path of those adventurers, though they will be missed after a while :)

There will be stories in the villages about such caves, but also about riches to be found exploring.

Possibly, though we don't want too many quests like this, or the necromancers will end up looking as cartoonishly evil as they were in Oblivion. I think I need to make a new thread in the Private section for necromancy quest ideas...

TerrifyingDaedricFoe wrote:
Helena wrote:We could show some 'independent' necromancers who choose to stay outside the Guild and its politics, precisely because they realise it's all going to end badly.

I agree, and there should be independent mages of other disciplines as well.

Definitely.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tarius » 04 Mar 2012, 21:47

Praedator wrote:A Necromancer in the wild, could survive necromancing by hiding in a cave, luring in adventurers, and fill black soulgems. Noone will ever know the path of those adventurers, though they will be missed after a while :)

There will be stories in the villages about such caves, but also about riches to be found exploring.

Why a cave? Why wouldnt they live like any other normal person? They could go to the cave as like their day/night job or something.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Praedator » 05 Mar 2012, 06:14

Tarius wrote:
Praedator wrote:A Necromancer in the wild, could survive necromancing by hiding in a cave, luring in adventurers, and fill black soulgems. Noone will ever know the path of those adventurers, though they will be missed after a while :)

There will be stories in the villages about such caves, but also about riches to be found exploring.

Why a cave? Why wouldnt they live like any other normal person? They could go to the cave as like their day/night job or something.



Sure any home will do :)

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Wollibeebee » 10 Mar 2012, 22:59

i haven't read the whole thread...

but i'd like to see necromancers living in old ruined cottages. not caves. It'd be alot spookier.

also, it would be cool if there was a doctor in the poor district of anvil who, by night, was actually a necromancer.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tarius » 10 Mar 2012, 23:06

Wollibeebee wrote:i haven't read the whole thread...

but i'd like to see necromancers living in old ruined cottages. not caves. It'd be alot spookier.

also, it would be cool if there was a doctor in the poor district of anvil who, by night, was actually a necromancer.

No, there is nothing that says necromancers or even evil people(not that all necromancers have to be evil) always have to live in run down places or caves.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Necromancy

Postby Tes96 » 13 Mar 2012, 07:23

Tarius wrote:
Wollibeebee wrote:i haven't read the whole thread...

but i'd like to see necromancers living in old ruined cottages. not caves. It'd be alot spookier.

also, it would be cool if there was a doctor in the poor district of anvil who, by night, was actually a necromancer.

No, there is nothing that says necromancers or even evil people(not that all necromancers have to be evil) always have to live in run down places or caves.

I agree. Necromancers don't always have to be evil. Why does reviving dead organic tissue have to be viewed as bad? Seems pretty scholarly to me.
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Re: Necromancy

Postby ScribJellyRollMorton » 14 Mar 2012, 04:22

Hello, I've been following this project for a short while and thought this would be a decent opportunity for an awkward greeting segued into some relevent discussion. I may have some misconceptions, but I have a few ideas on how to approach necromancy.

Segue.

First, I am under the impression at the time of Morrowind Ocato is still the Archmage of the guild, and under him necromancy is still perfectly acceptable practice within the guild. However, Hannibal Traven still exists, as ardently opposed to necromancy as ever, serving as head of the Anvil Mages guild.

The way I would approach necromancy is to have it be largely looked over throughout Cyrodiil. Commoners don't like the idea of mages playing god and defiling corpses no matter the scholarly intent, but they aren't going to get fired up unless the necromancers impact them directly.

The exception to the general practice of turning a blind eye would be the obvious priestly orders, and Hannibal Traven. From Traven is where I would draw the base of nearly all necromancy quests, but not in a way so that it would dominate the questline and become obnoxious like in Oblivion. I think it would be neat to have some quests where Traven has the player go out of their way to defame some non-evil necromancers to further his goals, but at the same time defame legitimately evil necromancers to maintain that moral grey realistic characters dwell in. Other guildhall heads would have their own interests and agendas, and Ocato would tie together a mainquest.

With Ocato at the helm now, and our knowledge that in a short while Traven will take charge, the player's ascension to Archmage is tricky. What I would do is late in the questline have Ocato pull the player aside and inform him/her that he will be assuming a greater role on the Elder Council and will have to step down. He would then inform the player that he/she and Hannibal Traven are the two main candidates but he is concerned that Hannibal's zeal will tear the guild apart (foreshadowing) and that if the player can prove themselve with one last task then he will promote him/her over Traven.

Segue.

Anyways, I would like to think that my ideas didn't ramble too much and can be of some help. Hopefully as my time frees up I will have time to submit a showcase and contribute further to this project as well as SHOTN. Keep up the great work all, what I have seen from the screens so far is amazing. :D

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Re: Necromancy

Postby SamirA » 14 Mar 2012, 04:29

Good ideas Scrib, thanks for your input and welcome to the forums.
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Wollibeebee
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Re: Necromancy

Postby Wollibeebee » 18 Mar 2012, 09:19

Tes96 wrote:
Tarius wrote:
Wollibeebee wrote:i haven't read the whole thread...

but i'd like to see necromancers living in old ruined cottages. not caves. It'd be alot spookier.

also, it would be cool if there was a doctor in the poor district of anvil who, by night, was actually a necromancer.

No, there is nothing that says necromancers or even evil people(not that all necromancers have to be evil) always have to live in run down places or caves.

I agree. Necromancers don't always have to be evil. Why does reviving dead organic tissue have to be viewed as bad? Seems pretty scholarly to me.

depends on who's bodies they're raising.

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