General notes on government

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MoonAndStar
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General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 18 Jan 2014, 11:56

This is just a very general outline of how I propose government works in Cyrodiil. I hope you can all contribute by adding/removing stuff.

The Empire is a monarchy sustained by a very complex and (excessively) large beaurocracy.

1. Emperor Uriel Septim VII, head of government. Has absolute control over the military.

2. The Elder Council. the UESP article on this is good: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Elder_Council

"The council has legislative authority, and may vote on and enact new laws they deem proper. However, the reigning Emperor retains the power of veto."

A)High Chancellor Ocato. Acts as prime minister, essentially ruling the empire with the council, as the Emperor has somewhat retired to the backround of government.

B)I propose the Elder Council be the sum of several other sub-councils that decide on particular matters:

-Territorial coucils: Council of Colovia (headed by the Duke of Colovia, who is chosen from amongst the Colovian counts according to consuetudinary law), Council of Nibenay (headed by ???), provincial councils (headed by the respective puppet kings, or proconsuls).

-Institutional councils: Council of State, Council of Finance, Council of War.

What we need to know is exactly who is on the Elder Council and why? Merit? title? money?

3. Procurators. In the Imperial city, in another institution, are the procurators who represent the interests of the county seats; they do things like negotiate taxes with the Council of finance, and more.

4. The counts. The counts rule the counties, exerting power over the county seat by dictating ordinances, while being watche over by...

5. Chief magistrates. Appointed by the emperor, these individuals watch over county administration and respond only to the Emperor. their job, aside from supervising city government, is to administer justice and organize tax collection.

Foremost among chief magistrates are the 2 Consuls, who additionally act as the eyes and ears of the emperor and territorial sub-councils in the lands of Colovia and Nibenay respectively. The consul compiles the reports of chief magistrates in his jurisdiction and presents them to the Elder Council once a year. The consular seats are at Kvatch and Mir Corrup. When the consul's term is finished, they pass on to serve as proconsuls in the provinces.

If a citizen is not satisfied with a court ruling given by his/her corresponding chief magistrate, the citizen may appeal to the consul for a second trial, and if not, to the Emperor himself, the ultimate source of justice.

6. Minor nobles. These are the warlike Lords of the more remote areas of Colovia and the nibenese magocrat plantation owners, recognised as legitimate by consuetudinary Imperial law. They have limited power.

I realise this has holes in it. I hope we can all chime in :)
Last edited by MoonAndStar on 22 Jan 2014, 00:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Infragris
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Re: General notes on government

Postby Infragris » 18 Jan 2014, 14:15

Some ideas for the Elder Coundil I had laying around. Still need eighteen seats to fill.


The Elder Council

The Council has thirty Chairs (or Thrones), some of which are "free" (meaning they carry no specific requirements or tasks, but are assigned to worthy individuals based on a complex election process between Emperor and Council), others are "bound", reserved to a specific role or group based on specific Imperial treaties. All assignments require the potential councilman to donate a massive sum of money to the Council.

The Council is not a representative parliament. Most sub-council groups (sometimes called "Choirs") represent Imperial concerns. Not every councilman or sub-council is equal: some have more votes than others, some may be excluded from voting if the matter at hand is not within their sphere of power, and some do not even have a high enough clearance to follow all debates: they are either excluded from the meetings or temporarily blinded/deafened by special magical procedures. This sort of exclusion is routine for anyone not sitting on the circular table.

Most Council members are also rulers within their specific domain. It is hardly feasible for all of them to be present at all times, and in reality the Council almost never convenes in full, and operates as a quorum. Some councilmen send a proxy in their place: a marked (masked?) representative of the representative, who can at times channel their master though a long-distance enchantment. proxies are more easily excluded from debates, and using a proxy carries a penalty in votes. One tactic that has been applied in the past is to keep the presence of a councilman in the city a secret, so as to upset the number of votes the opposition thinks they must have.

Apart from the thirty Council members, there are an uncertain number of support members, referred to as the Outer Circle: servants, clerks, mages supporting the magical superstructure of the council, and extraneous advisors, figures of note that are allowed to join their voice to the council, but cannot influence it.

1. The High Chancellor: elected by the Emperor, based on a list of candidates proposed by the Council. Candidates must be a member of the Council for at least a year and a day before they are eligible. The Emperor has the right to send the list back if none of the candidates match his designs, in which case the Council has to make a new list. This process can be repeated ad infinitum, and the Council has the right to elect an Interim Chancellor with limited powers after the third refusal. Some Councils have operated for years with an Interim Chancellor.
2. The Morrowind Representative: represents King Hlaalu Helseth, according to the terms of the Armistice. Council representation has been in the hands of the Hlaalu for generations. The current Council member, Athis-Ano Hlaalu, is very Imperial in outlook, and has attempted to find a middle ground for the issue of slavery. He has also been very succesful in securing Hlaalu trade rights along the Blue Road and Shadow Gate Pass.
3. The Skyrim Representative: directly appointed by the Nordic High King, Skors At-Videtur also doubles as a diplomatic aide for internal matters. At-Videtur has angered several Jarls duing the last round of conflicts, and is currently under siege in his home-fortress. He has not been seen in the City for over two years, and is represented by a proxy. Technically, his status as councilman could bail him out, but his enemies on the Council have blocked all attempts to set him free.
4. The High Rock Representative. Since the Warp of the West, the Breton kingdoms share this position: every two years, another member of the alliance can send his own representative. Orsinium does not have a representative of its own, and shares this position with the Bretons. The current representative is Pyrrh of the Moors, but by the end of the year he must give up his position to Rrû Gra-Alag, the first Orc to ever take a seat on the Elder Council. The inclusion of the Orcs in the Empire is a controversial issue in the Imperial City, and many are opposed to the idea of an Orc councilman.
5. The Hammerfell Representative. Appointed by a council of Crowns and Forebears in Sentinel, according to the terms of the Stros M'Kai treaty. The current councilor is Tiamc Llesi, a Crown noblewoman. Tiamc is very much opposed to the Orcish presence in the council and Empire in general.
6. The Summerset/Valenwood Representative. Share a single councilman since Tiber Septim first conquered the Dominion. The current councilman is a Bosmer of Ayleid ancestry, but everyone knowns he reports back for everything he does to a hidden Altmer representative.
7. The Elsweyr Representative. Ri'Mahar'Jo has been on the council for a long time, and derives all her authority from a single lock of hair from the Mane. Very much independent in her actions, rarely reporting back home to Elsweyr. Her spacious mansion and hedonistic feasts are the talk of the city. Also said to be a famed Illusionist.
8. The Black Marsh Overseer. Not a representative: Argonia lost the right of representation after their councilor was accused of assassinating Empress Katariah. Currently, the province is represented by Acci Deimenshe, an upstart Nibenese nobleman (originally a member of the Imperial administration). Deimenshe has never been to the province he represents, and treats his position as little more than an opportunity for self-improvement. He is attempting to reintroduce plantations and agriculture in Argonia. Is in close contact with the Imperial Legion and Prison authorities, who have many large facilities in Black Marsh. At the moment, there are no Argonians on the council.
9. The Duke of Colovia. Ormellius Goldwine is the head of the Council of Swords (Colovia), and represents the region on the council. The position is hereditary for the Royal House of Kvatch.
10. The Niben Delegate. Representative of Nibenay, elected by the River Council (Nibenay), but not the head of it. The River Council includes bot the noble leadership of Nibenay and various representatives of Guilds and merchant organizations. The position is a lot less stable than the Colovian one.
11. The Moth Advisor. Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree represents the Cult of the Ancestor Moth on the Council. This cult has the authority of the Elder Scrolls, and is expected to give council and warn of future events that they have read in the scrolls. In practice, however, the scrolls are so vague and everchanging that little attention is given to these warnings, and Nu-Hatta is considered a relatively powerless member of the council. Oddly, Council records show that the Moth Advisor has always been called Nu-Hatta. opinions are divided on whether it is a title or the same immortal man.
12. ...

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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 18 Jan 2014, 14:57

Wow, good stuff, Infragris.
Goldwine being the Duke of Colovia is exactly what i had in mind too. I'm not sure how I feel about that title being hereditary to county Kvatch though.
What do you think about my proposition for the sub-councils? perhaps there should also be a "choir" concerned with religious affairs.
How about we make it so the donation of a massive sum of money is not required, but there is a possibility to buy your seat on the council. I think some of the councillors should be trained imperial jurists.
It would be funny to let the player buy himself a seat on the council once he's gathered an insane amount of gold though.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby Infragris » 18 Jan 2014, 15:36

I'm thinking of Kvatch as the center or first among equals for Colovia, mostly because, even in Oblivion, the place gives this vibe: it's large, well-defended (on top of that hill, massive fortress), has the Temple of Akatosh (head of the Imperial Pantheon) and even has an arena, something only to be found in the Imperial City.

I really like the idea of the sub-councils. I was thinking of giving the Empire multiple state or state-sponsored religions: the Imperial Cult is the most important one, of course, but you also have the Ancestor Moth Cult, Emperor Zero, the priesthood of the Temple of the One, the Reman Cult, etc. All of these could have a voice in a religious sub-council.

The idea of the money requirement comes from Pelagius II, who sold seats on the Council to the highest bidder. Such a system would have large benefits for the Empire: it would keep independent seats exclusive, maintain the treasury, and maintain the majority vote of the affluent provinces. The large, respected organizations and provinces would have no problem paying this sum, but poorer groups could be pressured in this way.

Jurists are a good idea, and we still have plenty of seats to go around. A representative of administration might be of use as well. Would the military have a voice in the council?

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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 18 Jan 2014, 16:12

Truthfully, Kvatch has always struck me as the most Colovian of Colovian cities, up on it's cliff.

I say on the Council of War there could be some high ranking Legion generals, but with their decision power being solely limited to discussing battlefield tactics and general logistics with the Council, not the political side of it.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 18 Jan 2014, 17:21

We had a discussion on this topic a while ago in this thread.

I think some seats should be reserved for representatives chosen from the provinces. Possibly two from each if the Council numbers 30.

TerrifyingDaedricFoe wrote:I think that the ruler(s) of each province would nominate the candidate they want. Then the Emperor would examine the request, conferring with the necessary Imperial officials. If he didn't want the candidate to get a seat on the council (because the candidate is too extreme etc) then ask the Blades to dig up any dirt or previous scandals - or manufacture it in exceptional circumstances. That way the initiative seems to be with the provinces, but in fact the Emperor manipulates the process to gain the maximum benefit for the Empire as a whole, and Cyrodiil in particular.


Maybe then the rest of the seats are available to 'specialists' from various special interest groups (guilds, religions, companies). Supposedly this is to get expert voices into powerful places and try to make the council less political. Of course, it has the opposite effect because the special interest groups aren't reigned in by having to act (or pretend to act) in the best interests of a province's populace. They are free to make whatever nefarious deals they like to sustain their seat on the council.
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Re: General notes on government

Postby Saint_Jiub » 18 Jan 2014, 20:08

An idea I've had floating around for a while, dunno if it's something we'd wanna go with.

Hierophant – A theo-political seat nominated by the nine primates of the Church of Cyrodiil and confirmed by majority vote of the Elder Council. In the Western tradition, a hierophant is recognized as the final arbiter of Imperial law as it pertains to the divine – an Imperial decree ruled to be in violation of the Covenants by a four-fifths vote is considered to be automatically overturned; although the hierophants have no legislative authority, the political consequences of ignoring their verdict can be unpleasant. Once appointed*, saints serve for life or until their resignation.

For posterity, all twenty-five hierophants in the year of Akatosh 427 have been listed below:
Saint Alessia, the Mother of Dragons
Saint Mors, the Weeping Headsman
Saint Latalia, the Kingmaker Courtesan
Saint Somutus, the Student of Eternity
Saint Nille, the Robin of Spring
Saint Avita, the Turncloak Medic
Saint Severa, the Daughter of Luck
Saint Kaye, the Forgelord
Saint Uriel, the Dragon’s Blood
Saint Sul, the Moonreader
Saint Caius, the Knight in Gold
Saint Horuscia, the Devil at the Crossroads
Saint Idhdea, the Key and the Gate
Saint Selvia, the Willow-Bound
Saint Falced, the Prince in Exile
Saint Mankar, the Firebrand
Saint Severa, the Mother of Night
Saint Castilla, the Herald of Dawn
Saint Balfhedi, the Sinweaver
Saint Tralen, the King in Rags
Saint Bradas, the Nightingale
Saint Heceri, the Pale Horse
Saint Cingot, the Saturnine
Saint Solena, the Prince of Butterflies
Saint Ardaru, the Dreamcatcher

* With two exceptions: sainthood under Akatosh is considered to be held in perpetuity by the blessed spirit of Alessia, and sainthood under Talos is a ceremonial position held by the sitting Emperor of Cyrodiil.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby Infragris » 18 Jan 2014, 21:04

The problem with having two representatives of each province is that you get massive overrepresentation: the Empire isn't democratic by any stretch, and there's no reason for them to give a large voice to the regions they rule. Some regions, like Skyrim, Hammerfell, and Morrowind, got a good deal when the Empire was first forged, and are allowed to choose their own representative. Others, like Black Marsh, are pretty much voiceless. There's also no reason for them to be coy in making up reasons why a candidate is rejected, or making the Council seem less political: they're an empire.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby alex25 » 20 Jan 2014, 18:24

Going with Infragris('s?) idea of the Elder council we could fill a couple of seats with:

....

12. The Imperial Battlemage: the main magical authority within the council, the holder of this seat is responsible for dealing with the various magical threats to the empire, training the battlemages, providing magical defense to the emperor and council and keeping a magical courier network in the Empire. This is one of the most important and influential positions. This may or may not be unoccupied since Jagar Tharn.
13. A Knight of the Imperial Dragon: represents the Legions and is technically equal with the other Knights of the Imperial Dragon commanding the various legions. In practice this is a very important position since he has command over Legion finance, equipment, deployments.
14. The Archbishop of the Temple of the One (or High Prelate if the Archbishop is needed for something else): Represents the Imperial Cult. Will probably be someone very weak willed and meek since the former Archbishop Calexes Septim was assassinated because he tried to establish a theocracy.
15. The Representative of the Guilds: Elected by the Guilds and representing their interest. Very politically savvy, almost irritatingly competent Imperial or Breton.
16. The Treasurer : Runs the Treasury and deals with the tax collection. The Census and Excise answer to him (or her).
17. The Mayor of the Imperial City: runs the IC and is elected by the guilds, merchants and nobles. Filthy rich, very decadent Imperial who loves opulence and is a patron of the Arts.
18. The High Chamberlain: runs the Imperial Household (not only the Imperial Palace but all the other properties administered directly by the crown.).

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Re: General notes on government

Postby SamirA » 26 Jan 2014, 17:10

I like the rough breakdown we have now. The question is how do we reflect this in game? What buildings do we need to ensure are included in the cities to reflect the government we have roughly put together?
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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 26 Jan 2014, 17:40

If you want to go with my idea for small scale goverment,

the county seats (aside from the obvious count's castle) could have a building associated to the chief imperial magistrate. This could be a building located near the guild chapters, containing a court room and a nice office, along with other offices for functionaries, tax collecters, census takers... The alternative is to have the chief magistrate just do all his business in the castle.

Then in Kvatch, (if you're alright with the consul idea) there would be a consular palace, in the same vein as the proconsul's palace in Narsis, but essentially a glorified chief magistrate's building as described above

Then aside from that, there should be several roughly autonomous lords in the country.

That's all I can think of for Colovia, might need to be expanded more, since it sounds a bit bare-bones.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby Infragris » 26 Jan 2014, 23:03

Isn't power in the hands of the counts in this case? The Colovian estates are rather independent and privileged parts of the Empire: most activities like taxation and justice should be concentrated in the hands of local government, unlike Narsis which has a completely different political profile. An Imperial overseer can be present (in cases like Sutch, perhaps), but is probably not a permanent figure as that would undermine the political position of the Colovians.

Proposition:
Government in Colovia runs in a general urban-feudal way: the county lords rule from their central cities, bolstered by the ancient rights and privileges of the defunct Colovian royal houses. Lesser lords within their domain rule their own villages and settlements. Census, taxes, and justice are dealt with by the local lord (as privileges hard-won by the Colovians) but the citizen in question can appeal to a higher authority, theoretically all the way to the Emperor (though there are systems in place to prevent this). The Empire, in turn, takes its money and information from these local lords. The system is in essence makeshift and irrational, as most medieval systems were.

The central Imperial government is present in the Legion forts, which double as administrative support, and in a center of legion and administration business in Kvatch, controlled by an Imperial authority who is at odds with the Duke. Other than that, the local and Legion officials move on different levels, and rarely conflict.

EDIT: I almost forgot, we need to figure out the nature and composition of the Imperial administration. This is mostly important for lore books, as we already have several books referencing councils and offices that should probably be brought in line with each other. Some preliminary ideas:
The Ecumenical Authority. Based in the Temple District, this authority attempts to study and police all cults and religions in the Empire. They maintain the List of Proscribed Cults, seek out sects that promote illegal doings, and suppress excessive Daedra worship. They also offer permits for cults in the Temple District, determining who may and may not build a shrine there. They have little to no power over the Empire's state religions, like the Imperial Cult or the Ancestor Moth Cult.
The Marrow Office. This small, notorious authority is based in the Imperial City Prisons, and deals with licensed necromancy in the Niben Valley. They give out permits, donate executed criminals and investigate rumors of abuse. All legal revenants must have the official seal on their head, along with their file number and date of "reintegration".
The Census and Excise Bureau
The Archivist Authority. Maintain the Empire's vast archives. Improbably layered. Have a feud going with the Census & Excise Office, who have their own archives.
The Numidianist Council. Suppression of a very specific sort of heresies, and dealing with the research and storage of Dwemer objects and weapons. Originated after the destruction military potential as the Brass God. Have close ties to the Blades.
Proscribed Victuals Agency. Suppression of Skooma, Moon Sugar etc.
The Lunar Authority. An obscure and small service, apparently concerned with making sure the moons are in their correct tracks. Some claim they abuse their power to illegally trade in Moon Sugar.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 26 Jan 2014, 23:54

Fair enough, but for the sake of having some imperial presence in the cities, how about the magistrates instead of directly administering justice, they supervise, make sure imperial law is enforced, ensure the taxes destined to the emperor aren't embezzled, and serve as a secondary dipensor of justice. This is Cyrodiil, I really think that even if they dont have much power, there should definitely be a permanent imperial megistrate in the cities. He doesn't even have to have a building, just be some poor sod sitting around the castle.
And the Imperial authority at odds with the Duke = Consul :D The consul is an extension of the council of colovia and as such informs about problems and all. Also, collects census information and tax that must go to the Imperial City. oh, also, as said in OP, third tier justice, before Emperor.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby SamirA » 27 Jan 2014, 00:03

With this system, who would patrol the towns in a given region? Guards from the major city or legion patrols? I like the idea of the legion preserving order in the wilderness and small villages. It would give us more of a chance to show off our different legions as separate entities, but that is just me. I don't care how it is done it just needs to be decided and we need to map out where we will see what authority so that our system is apparent in the game world.
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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 27 Jan 2014, 00:20

I personally in favour of the legion patrolling the towns. I like to think of county limits as being reduced currently to fiscal districts, or however you say that in English. Everyone inside the territory pays taxes to the count, but the count has no military jurisdiction outside the city. The count in this outline conserves some powers and ceremonial symbols, but in reality most power has been usurped by the Imperial government from behind the scenes. Just my thoughts.

It indeed would be a good idea to have a map that shows which legions go where, and where their headquarters are. How's one legion for Gold Coast and West Weald?

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Re: General notes on government

Postby SamirA » 27 Jan 2014, 00:42

I was thinking we might have one legion per region. So the GC has one and the WW and the CH and so on. We just need to decide where the active forts are and where each legion is. We already had some discussion on this in the legion thread, but this fits in the government thread as this is more a design thread while that is supposed to be about the story we will tell with it.
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Re: General notes on government

Postby MoonAndStar » 27 Jan 2014, 00:48

Thing is, if we take into account the legions currently stationed in other Provinces, where are their bases for when they are recalled to Cyrodiil? To me having 10+ legions active in Cyrodiil sounds a bit overkill, but I guess that depends on how big legions really are.

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Re: General notes on government

Postby SamirA » 27 Jan 2014, 00:57

Why would they ever be recalled? They are needed in those regions to keep the peace or fight as well. Or perhaps the legions have some auxiliary that stays behind to protect their home region while the bulk of legion goes to war or to manage some foreign province? I don't know, its all open for anything at the moment. We could have fewer legions that manage things across region borders and don't follow the same borders as the rest of the government in colovia or nibenay if we choose. We just need to come up with a good plan so that we can move forward with this stuff and then the cool little details will be left to you guys because you are good at it and it makes things interesting.
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Re: General notes on government

Postby Infragris » 27 Jan 2014, 11:37

Ten legions is too much, I think. It would be unmanageable from a design perspective: we need unique insignias, specific legion culture and viewpoints, quests and faction politics, ... It would make the legion questline needlessly complicated as well: we'd need to invent some reason why the player character can freely switch between legions, something other soldiers presumably can't.

Personally, I think three or four legions would be fine, with possibly another one added as the result of a high-tier questline: the Ruby Legion in the Imperial City, one legion in Colovia (somewhere around Kvatch?), and either one legion in Nibenay or two, one for the south, one for the Cheydinhall region. All of them are focused on home defense, and a part of each legion has gone out to the provinces (fortresses are much larger than they need to be).

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Re: General notes on government

Postby Griff » 27 Jan 2014, 13:28

The legions should patrol the borders of Cyrodiil to stop smugglings across the land and such and manage the checkpoints and roads on the border. There should be a legion around the pale pass and the jerall mountains, one in the blackwood region etc.
Thats all i have to say.

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