Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

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SamirA
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Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 10 Oct 2011, 02:54

This thread is meant to be a sort of checklist of things we need to do before we will be ready to release Stirk.

What we have accomplished:
Basically we have the exterior of our Stirk release completed. We may need to make a few tweaks here and there, but it is 99% complete. We may include the Abecean Sea region with our Stirk release if the claims are finished by the time the rest of Stirk is complete. This is certainly possible, but it is not a major issue.

Where we need to go:
We still need to create the interior claims for Stirk, as well as finish up characters and quests. We also need a few odd and ins starightened out.

What has to be done:
Knowing where we need to end up opens up a list of things that still need to be completed. For this first release there are a myriad of seemingly small details that still need to be completed before work can be finished. These details will not need to be done for most other releases as they will build upon one another. Needless to say Stirk is basically our most important release in the Colovian lands as it should contain 90% of all items we need for half of Cyrodiil.

Items to address:
1. We still need to fix the Stirk door issue. At this time I think that perhaps a completely new doorframe (and perhaps door) needs to be made. The issue of clipping with the doors has yet to be solved and really makes things frustrating.

2. We need a door for our lighthouse model. We may also want to remove the doorframe from one side of the model. Right now there are spots for doors on opposite sides, but only one door is really needed for this model.

3. Some flora models still need to be revisited.

4. A decision needs to be reched on clothing. Will we use some of the newer BB style clothing that doesn't fit into the game as well, or will we try to create some new clothing? This will mostly come into play in the Nibenese regions, but a few new additions would certainly be a nice touch.

5. Our Stirk guard armor and Colovian Prince armors need to be finalized.

6. Ayleid clutter needs to be at least partially completed. We want to make the Ayleid seem more real as the dwemer are in Morrowind. To do this we need artifacts. Some form of dishwear as well as bed frames, and furniture made of the typical ayleid stone would be great additions to the few containers found in Oblivion as well as the new Ayleid coins we have already created.

7. Ingredients need to be completed for many of our plants. Also, the ingredients for our new plants need to be discussed, what properties should they have? What should they be called?

8. Minor fixes need to be performed by myself.

9. Goblin clutter needs to be created for caves. This has been detailed elsewhere, but not addressed.

10. New interior accent pieces need to be created for Stirk. The com set will be our interior set in the Colovian lands, but each city should be recognizable as different. This means we need to create some stand-alone pieces that will set each cities interiors apart. Certainly pillars can have different details added to them, and windows will be different to match their exterior counterpats, but other additions need to be discussed and created as well, that will make each city different from one another without the need to add an entirely new set for each one.

11. The Stirk Ayleid ruin needs to be discussed. As of now we don't have an interior set for the ruins. We can either get this set completed, or we could make the ruin interior with cave and exterior ruin pieces in much the same way that Scamp has showcased. I personally do not care which is used here as both are good ways to go and will both be found in our ruins. I suppose it mostly is up to Tarius on whether he will be creating the Ayleid interior set in a timely manner or if it will be a longer project.

Thats all that i can think of beyond some other very minor things that can wait until the testing/fixing phase. Discussion can begin here, but feel free to create threads to address specific items. :nyansheo:
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Worsas » 13 Oct 2011, 18:39

You probably know that we have been sitting on Amberguard for a complete year at S:HotN, you probably won't like the idea of a similar course with Stirk but it's not surprising when a huge pile of basic resources, such as the ayleid-set, needs to be created first. As soon as that stage is past you, everything will probably be a lot more fluent.

I could clear up one of the points in this list for you, maybe the goblin-resources?, I could try to be inventive there.

If Tarius has no time to create the interior shells for the gold coast-architecture, I could do them aswell. I have made a few interior-tilesets already at ShotN, I know my way around with them and if I happen to be screwing around you can rap my knuckles and I will fix it.

I just don't like when work in other sections such as npcing and interior-building is delayed because of arrears in sections such as modelling or exterior-making.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Tarius » 13 Oct 2011, 21:23

The problem here is that I am the only person making any of the major stuff. Without me, there would be no town, or wayshrine, or Ayleid anything, or perhaps there would be, but to a lesser extent compared to what I made.
The point here is that I am the only one doing this. I wouldnt mind if there was someone else helping out here.
Obviously there is one person who wanted to do the Ayleid interiors and if needed I am sure he wouldnt mind it. The only thing I didnt like about his was that it wasnt rounded enough for me when it could have been without substantially increasing the poly count.

So I ask, what is the time table here? If work progresses, will it be a couple months? or beginning of next year? etc, doesnt have to be precise just estimated. Tell me the time, and I will estimate if I could get it done or not.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Worsas » 13 Oct 2011, 21:54

Then I should probably help out. I have started with Goblin-clutter today.

Proof:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22362022/pics/goblinaxe.jpg

Let me know what meshes you are needing in particular.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 13 Oct 2011, 21:57

Early next year would be a nice legitimate time for us to spit our Stirk, Tarius. If you can get the interior set going that would be great. It doesn't even need to be the entire set or anything like that for us to have a nice ruin, but some pieces such as the interior entrance and at least a few hall pieces woud certainly make it easier. I am all for you making it at your own pace. Nothing has to be released at a certain time, but the sooner the better as with all things.

Worsas, feel free to make the goblin clutter. Draw some inspiration from the few bits seen in goblin caves of Oblivion, but make it your own and have fun with it. As for the interior pieces, we only will need small bits to fit the com set. We realy need some concepts going on that but feel free to come up with some additions on your own as well. We have several cities that will need them so if it won't fit Stirk it will certainly fit another city. Once we get closer to the Nibenese lands we will certainly be in need of your tile-set skills more as we will need a completely new set to fit the Nibenese architecture which is yet to be designed.

EDIT: beat me to posting Worsas :)
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 13 Oct 2011, 22:01

See my above post about the Goblin clutter, that is certainly a useful item you have made already though. Very crude and goblin like, I love it.

For other bits, we had discussed some fortifications for them to have built up in caves and some crude campsite stuff like lean-tos and bedding. Some very crude utensils and tools would be good as well as some scary totems or decor.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby TerrifyingDaedricFoe » 14 Oct 2011, 08:47

This thread has a list of all the goblin stuff we need/want.
SamirA wrote:
Tarius wrote:This is entirely a matter of the Bethstapo that will burst in, yell STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM, and C&D us to death if we violate copyright.
Haha, bethstapo.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 14 Oct 2011, 12:31

Thanks for digging that up TDF. I knew it was out there I justs didn't look hard enough for it. Good work.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Tarius » 14 Oct 2011, 20:40

Alright. The hallways will be 5 basic pieces(1 straight, 1 right turn, 1 left turn, 1 threeway, 1 fourway). Unless we want variety like swinging blades(which I always though was kinda dumb because its literally impossible to die from if you take your time, unless they are going super fast but that defeats the purpose, plus, unless they contain magical strengthed materials, someone could put an iron bar across the path to stop them) or somthing like that, that will be all thats ever needed.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
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Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby dirnae » 15 Oct 2011, 11:06

Could go with magical traps in general instead.
Step on a platform, it starts glowing with a picture or some runes (animated glow map) and then you burst into flames/get blasted into a popsicle/get thunder-bolted. It'd be easier.

If you went with this I'd have a very fine detail map with the markings etched lightly too, just so the player can tell if it's trapped by looking closely.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Helena » 15 Oct 2011, 15:21

More Ayleid clutter sounds good. Utensils, furniture, decorative items, perhaps a few more frescoes and things for the walls.

I think we should go easy on traps in general. We can certainly have them in places where it would make sense - e.g. treasure vaults and prison areas - but overall the ruins should feel like places where people once lived and worked, not dungeons that are just there for the sake of being dungeons. That was a big problem in Oblivion.

4. A decision needs to be reched on clothing. Will we use some of the newer BB style clothing that doesn't fit into the game as well, or will we try to create some new clothing? This will mostly come into play in the Nibenese regions, but a few new additions would certainly be a nice touch.
I think we should do a bit of both - use as much as we can from the more lore-friendly BB clothing mods, and create the rest ourselves. However, even the pre-existing clothing may need alterations. For instance, as discussed in this thread, Westly has some good clothing but some of the meshes will need segmenting.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Tarius » 15 Oct 2011, 20:59

Helena wrote:More Ayleid clutter sounds good. Utensils, furniture, decorative items, perhaps a few more frescoes and things for the walls.

I think we should go easy on traps in general. We can certainly have them in places where it would make sense - e.g. treasure vaults and prison areas - but overall the ruins should feel like places where people once lived and worked, not dungeons that are just there for the sake of being dungeons. That was a big problem in Oblivion.

4. A decision needs to be reched on clothing. Will we use some of the newer BB style clothing that doesn't fit into the game as well, or will we try to create some new clothing? This will mostly come into play in the Nibenese regions, but a few new additions would certainly be a nice touch.
I think we should do a bit of both - use as much as we can from the more lore-friendly BB clothing mods, and create the rest ourselves. However, even the pre-existing clothing may need alterations. For instance, as discussed in this thread, Westly has some good clothing but some of the meshes will need segmenting.

I this was talked about. Outer areas have the traps, inner areas have the living spaces.
Someone remind us about that. There was also talk that these were the Ayleid tombs and not actually living spaces, forget what was talked about there.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby DJGamer » 16 Oct 2011, 07:16

dirnae wrote:Could go with magical traps in general instead.
Step on a platform, it starts glowing with a picture or some runes (animated glow map) and then you burst into flames/get blasted into a popsicle/get thunder-bolted. It'd be easier.

If you went with this I'd have a very fine detail map with the markings etched lightly too, just so the player can tell if it's trapped by looking closely.


Technically I don't think glow maps can be animated (though I'm not sure I've tried yet). The examples I've shown are actually animated textures with static glow maps. Since glow maps have an additive effect the brightness of the underlying texture still has an effect-or at least that's how it looks in NIFSkope (I've never tested it in-game).

Also, I'm not sure if you can set up a texture animation to "play" via a scripted command-though a possible alternative would be to set it up as two activators that "switch" when the player steps on them-one has the animated texture and the other does not.

My opinion on traps in general-they should certainly be included in places where they make sense-and I actually kind of liked the swinging blades once I got used to timing my movements through them.

Also, I think I mentioned before the idea of somehow working certain traps out so that they can be disabled with a probe, though I'm not quite sure how well that might work out since probes are designed to work a particular way.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby dirnae » 16 Oct 2011, 10:52

It's possible, use a seperate plane mesh with animated alpha material if you can't animate the glowmap itself.

Whether you can play an animation or not depends on whether they use animation keys, and if you can assign their time lengths to text keys. You can play bone, material, UV animation and morphs this way AFAIK, waterfall-style textures I'd have to check but they're not needed in any case.

Whether you want to go this route is another matter, but something that simple is definately possible.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby DJGamer » 16 Oct 2011, 17:57

I had a few more thoughts on the concept of disarming traps and I wanted to spell them out a bit more clearly.

The main problem we may encounter is the fact that probes are designed for the disarming of "magical traps" (i.e. doors and containers that cast a spell on the player if used without being disarmed). The idea I have is to allow the player to disarm at least some mechanical traps using a probe which may require some kind of scripting work-around if it's possible at all.

The "trap mechanism" could be set up as a "trapped" container that's scripted in such a way that the player cannot open it (or activate the actual trap) but can disable it with a probe. Furthermore, the script would detect when the trap has been disabled and then "turn off" the corresponding mechanical trap. I have no idea whether or not this would be possible with either vanilla scripting or MWSE.

A possible alternative would be to forego the use of probes altogether and instead design the "trap mechanisms" to do a security skill check (which may or may not be possible without MWSE) and possibly some kind of "success roll" to add a bit of a random element.

I also have the idea that not all traps would have an accessible mechanism to disable them and/or some of the mechanisms could be broken in such a way as to make disabling the traps impossible. Yet another idea is the player may occasionally encounter traps that have already been disabled or that are broken and no longer function properly or at all.

If we can only accomplish the trap disabling concept with MWSE then it could be set up as an optional add-on.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Helena » 16 Oct 2011, 19:35

I don't think it's possible to detect whether things are trapped with scripting, at least not in the vanilla game. Also, I'm not really sure how probes would work for that - as you said, they're meant for disarming magical traps rather than mechanical ones. If we want the player to be able to disable mechanical traps, it could always be done through scripting instead - perhaps even make it a simple puzzle to vary the gameplay a bit.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 17 Oct 2011, 03:23

Dirnae's magical trap ideas are certainly the route to go. No swinging axes or anything like that. Those basic hall pieces should allow for some good makeshifted ruins before anything more substantial is created Tarius so it will certainly work for at least the Stirk ruin if not more.

As to what the ruins are, we are going with living spaces. Entire cities are buried under the ground on earth, so for these to be ancient living spaces makes plenty of sense. While many of these ruins would be raided of most decorative items and such, many more will not be due to the undead and magical guardians that were left in place when the Ayleid left. In fact a nice touch in some ruins would be corpses of would-be tomb robbers who met their ends. Think of the Ayleid ruins we create as a mix between the ruins of Luxor and the Pyramids. They are buried cities full of deterents for thieves. This will allow us to show living spaces that aren't entirely barren of items due to theft.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Tarius » 17 Oct 2011, 04:07

SamirA wrote:Dirnae's magical trap ideas are certainly the route to go. No swinging axes or anything like that. Those basic hall pieces should allow for some good makeshifted ruins before anything more substantial is created Tarius so it will certainly work for at least the Stirk ruin if not more.

As to what the ruins are, we are going with living spaces. Entire cities are buried under the ground on earth, so for these to be ancient living spaces makes plenty of sense. While many of these ruins would be raided of most decorative items and such, many more will not be due to the undead and magical guardians that were left in place when the Ayleid left. In fact a nice touch in some ruins would be corpses of would-be tomb robbers who met their ends. Think of the Ayleid ruins we create as a mix between the ruins of Luxor and the Pyramids. They are buried cities full of deterents for thieves. This will allow us to show living spaces that aren't entirely barren of items due to theft.

I have to disagree here. Entire cities are underground because people build over top of them or a natural disaster covers them, we have none of that here except for mabe the Imperial City.(the whole thing with the Dwemer is that most of their stuff was buried in the eruption of Red Mountain) Being buried through a bit of sinking or just in general usually only happens for a few feet over 1000 years or something similiar to that.
Basically, if they have these huge underground areas, they would have to have been put underground on purpose. I could see being buried up to like 2-3 stories max however.
One thing I have just thought of though, is the fact that most of the lower lying ruins should be completely underwater. These arnt completely water proof and with no upkeep over the many years in tropical surroundings, they would have been inundated. Obviously not all would be filled with water, but many should be. Undead wont drown if they are in the water will they?

An interesting though here, lower doorways would provide a route for water to escape meaning they would have running water inside them and could act as an artificial spring for anyone who wanted it.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby SamirA » 17 Oct 2011, 04:21

That is not true sir. Certainly there are no perfect examples of cities in the way Ayleid structures will be represented here, but this is a game. There must be a balance between plausablility and functionality. Luxor is an example of a city that was not build atop, but simply buried over time. There are other examples of buried cities that are not simply built over.

In addition to the above, this is a world where the gods are ever present and do things on a whim. Hell, the reason Oblivion appears the way it does is suppoesedly due to a god changing the climate. If that is possible, along with all the other metaphysical crazieness that happens in Tamriel (dwemer just disappear...) is it that hard to think that the Ayleid cities were all sunken into the ground? In fact that could be exactly what has happened, they could have sunk their own cities as they vanished so that the slaves could not reside in them as conquerors. I could think of a million other posibilities that would fit into the TES world as I imagine could most of the other members here. Certainly we can have flooded ruins and such, but there is no need to limit ourselves to this in a world with such vast posibilities.
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Re: Stirk - Where we stand, and where we need to go.

Postby Tarius » 17 Oct 2011, 04:37

SamirA wrote:That is not true sir. Certainly there are no perfect examples of cities in the way Ayleid structures will be represented here, but this is a game. There must be a balance between plausablility and functionality. Luxor is an example of a city that was not build atop, but simply buried over time. There are other examples of buried cities that are not simply built over.

In addition to the above, this is a world where the gods are ever present and do things on a whim. Hell, the reason Oblivion appears the way it does is suppoesedly due to a god changing the climate. If that is possible, along with all the other metaphysical crazieness that happens in Tamriel (dwemer just disappear...) is it that hard to think that the Ayleid cities were all sunken into the ground? In fact that could be exactly what has happened, they could have sunk their own cities as they vanished so that the slaves could not reside in them as conquerors. I could think of a million other posibilities that would fit into the TES world as I imagine could most of the other members here. Certainly we can have flooded ruins and such, but there is no need to limit ourselves to this in a world with such vast posibilities.

Darn, you got the one thing I forgot to mention. Luxor is in a desert that has sandstorms and such, thats why it was buried. Sandstorms dont occur in Cyrodiil.
Anyway, I am not saying there cant be a reason, I am saying that if a reason is presented, it has to be plausable. That they built their cities underground on purpose is a perfectly reasonable explanation.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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