Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anvil]

Worsas
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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Worsas » 18 Aug 2014, 11:27

Well, you know, I have spent almost every single day in these recent weeks on modelling and preparing things within PC_Data myself. I have filled nearly 800 containers, made hundreds of levelled items, inserted countless body parts, made dozens of icons, modelled objects for cluttery of Anvil etc etc.

You have got a PC_Data and a bunch of resources on demand. Naturally I would have been going to provide you the signs aswell. Between all those things it was difficult for me to spend enough time and attention towards your claim. I'm sorry for that.

I beg to be slightly more cooperative when it comes to needed modifications. That is an essential part of this development, as we have not been able to perform proper planning as it would have been needed to avoid such a situation.

If we already spend all this effort on a city by creating all the assets and after the exterior on interiors and npcs, the place should really really really be in a satisfactory state all around. And... we are probably only speaking about replacing two buildings and having a few others repurposed.

We really need to establish a way of planning a city beforehand that prevents situations like this one. I feel very strained and annoyed myself about this.

Edit: Between all that pressure, I probably haven't said enough that you did an absolutely fabulous job on the layout and artistical side of things. We are lucky that you took over Anvil in the first place.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 18 Aug 2014, 12:38

I know you did a lot of work on PC_data and assets Worsas, its not what this is about, though I really appreciate you did it...Have you heard me about these assets, or PC_data, have I been criticizing them? No, I don't do that out of respect, and use them as they are.

I had to change about a hundred containers because you chose to do so at the last moment...ok better late than never, again you didn't here any critics.

I have asked for assets, just because they didn't exist, and were needed...never asked you stuff we wouldn't really need, and if so I mentioned it as an idea, like the windmill. Again, I agreed no critics.

What I don't understand is how Wolli could have made his city if there wasn't enough to work on, no plans that you mention, again the Anvil development threads were about 2 years old...why change stuff at the last moment? I have read through all the threads and kept track of to do's and needed things, inserted those in game, made a layout, put the layout in the discussion thread and altered anything that was needed and asked for...what else can I do?

SamirA asked for many updates and screens...so I did.

I am just not a last moment change type of guy, and this sort of things really send me to a psychiatric hospital, it is hard to explain and sad but true.

What hurts most is that you demand a structural change of the Imperial Navy, what in my opinion will only look worse...on which SamirA agrees actually. Naming, or swapping and interior designation, is not so much of a problem however. I even suggested to use the Thieves Guild HQ near the main gate and harbour to be replaced by the Census and Excise...it seems you haven't read that as you neither agreed nor repelled the idea, but you mention it again in a new post in the Anvil Thread.

This because an error of mine, I thought in Cyrodiil the TG is a recognized guild, which isn't true so we had 3 TG ints, now imo the TG should only be present in the poor quarter, a pawnbroker as in lore and an inn next to it. The HQ can thus be redesignated, its a big building of stature, so why not CEO?

Anvil boating club is just a name I gave it, nothing final, just a club for the snobby rich in a very desirable location. It is a club as much as Rat in the Pot, Southwall Corner Club, or any inn for that matter and has tables outside to profit from the beautiful sights on Temple of Dibella, a beach and the harbour.

I have been very cooperative thoughout the last month. With no bad emotions, critics or harshness. And as I said why was there no planning if Wolli already worked on Anvil for months?

On Imp Navy, it has two supportive buildings across the road, in Anvil Style, a school and its own warehouse, it should have IN Banners and they have imperial planters outside. What will you do with those?

I did the real planning by building the city....posted the designations and altered what was needed...thats all I have to say.

Thank you that you like my work, I did the best I could, but frankly I started to have enough of it with these kind of issues. And I start to feel I can better spend my time somewhere else because we aren't on one line of ideas & plans....shame really with so few people and so much potential.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby roerich » 18 Aug 2014, 14:11

While I definitely understand Worsas' worries about city planning and having planned areas before building them (this is why we are now nearing Almalexia what, 4.0?), it's just bad planning and forgetfulness that we forgot to do this before Praedator started work on Anvil. We can't fix it now, nor should we - but we can still make minor fixes and repurpose some ints. The city at large is gorgeous, no one is disagreeing in that. I agree about the Legion Navy having a larger presentation, as well as the C&E office. These are minor adjustments in my eyes, which someone else can implement to their tastes once the rest of the city is finished, if so desired.

That being said, I really understand your frustration, Praedator. You dedicate an enormous lot to this project, and I see why having semi-big changes come at last moment when lots and lots of time has been there before (though we are really owing both of you for spending the amount of time you do). I think it's good to come forward and talk about how situations like this can cause you greater distress than most other people, and I hope you understand that everyone is grateful for what you've done with Anvil.

I don't want any bad blood between project members, and I think this problem in itself is just the product of forgetfulness and bad planning, like the first 10 years for TR (exaggeration, don't kill me :P ). I'm sure we can work something out that alters your work to a minimal degree, and that the team as whole can agree on.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby MoonAndStar » 18 Aug 2014, 14:41

Come now, let's get along! Roerich's in the right of it. really most of these concers don't require any major changes to the exterior. The thieves guild can be turned into a house, the boating club can be given another name, etc. Regarding the navy HQ, I agree with Prae and SamirA. It really doesn't need to be fortified. (another thing would be a coastal battery by the lighthouse defending the harbor entrance). If you want it to stand out, really all you need is to cover the building in the appropriate banners, and have a lot of military personnelle wandering around. That's all you need for the player to understand what the building is.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Infragris » 18 Aug 2014, 17:46

I thought the spread of Thieves Guild ints was an interesting idea, since they are supposed to be an old and powerful crime syndicate in Cyrodiil (as opposed to Morrowind, where they are a newcomer), so I supposed these worked a bit like a legitimate front-ends for their business, mafia-style. Of course, that's idle speculation, and I'm not advocating we return to this setup if there is consensus otherwise - I find both proposals equally interesting.

I was fiddling with names and background for the guilds and places around Anvil, but got distracted with irl business - apologies for that, Praedator. For now, since the club and the casino seem to be matters of some importance:
  • The casino can be modelled after a place like the Ridotto, as I've mentioned elsewhere. The notion of it being technically open to the public, but in practice restricted sounds interesting: a "dresscode" is easily done by using the dialogue function that checks the combined value of everything you wear. The name is a good model, too: we could use Hrafnir's Old Cyrodiis to derive an appealing and exotic name (gambling palace and casino are perhaps a bit on the nose), or something like the Bay Palace or the Abecette (referring to the sea).
  • The boating club could be in honor of/founded by the first Count of Anvil, who was a commodore in the Imperial Navy: the Commodore Club, maybe? A place for wealthy merchants, Imperial administrators and aristocracy on a pilgrimage/retreat from the east to mingle. Like the casino, it could be restricted to players whose equipment or fame do not reach required levels, thus widening the gap between this ritzy parts of Anvil and its poorer districts.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby roerich » 18 Aug 2014, 18:52

I like those plans a lot.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Saint_Jiub » 18 Aug 2014, 20:05

I'll have to agree with the majority here- Prae is in charge of Anvil, we have to respect his vision. While there's certainly some oddities like the boat club (the boats in the harbor all appear to be commercial or military vessels, not recreational), we can work around that. A social club for current/retired naval officers, for instance. It's all a matter of presentation, if Internet and space travel can be worked into the lore I have to think something like a casino can too.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby SamirA » 19 Aug 2014, 00:14

Yes, as Jiub said, it is the presentation that needs to be worked on, but Prae already acknowledged that and asked for help with the naming of most of Anvil. All we need to do is decided exactly what we want from these places and name them accordingly. Remember the interior is really going to do most of the story telling with these buildings. We will have to have a concrete picture of what we want as we head into that phase. In my opinion that is where we will make Anvil a fitting city.
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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 19 Aug 2014, 01:28

After a long talk with SamirA I came to following;

Progress on Anvil will be halted until I got all the needed assets, for now that are;

- Stone walls with gate and corners in Anvil style
- Appropriate hanging signs either additional to vanilla signs, or complete new set
- Imperial Navy Banners
- A solution to differentiate Guard Houses from normal buildings...my idea was to use a coatofarms mesh with a guard logo in appropriate colour scheme to hang above the doors of guardhouses.

I also post a solution in the designation map below;

- There will be a Census and Excise Office at 31, bordering Passenger Harbour, at the poor side where most passengers come through.
- Thieves Guild HQ is restored
- Boating Club will have some double sized rowboats (recreative) if needed.

Additional Fortifications next to Lighthouse were mentioned, but I am afraid that it will not have a nice impact on the area, or I should increase the width of the paninsula, which would look awkward, not to mention the texture mismatch between imperial and Anvilian buildings. Furthermore it took ages to get it good looking. Also the Fort commands all water areas surrounding it, I made sure that every corner of the island has walled fortifications to house a legion of men. See pics below.

Furthermore I would be happy to get all the names sorted, and/or changes from house to shop or similar swaps. Then I can update the designation map.
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TES Construction Set 2014-08-19 02-24-18-01.jpg
TES Construction Set 2014-08-19 02-23-14-69.jpg
Anvil Interior Designations 02 Aug-14.jpg

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby SamirA » 19 Aug 2014, 03:52

Upon further viewing, I don't see the need for any more fortifications to protect the harbor. I don't see why the castle can't fill this role.
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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Yeti » 19 Aug 2014, 08:24

Praedator wrote:[Edit] I have spent 3 weeks hard work lets say 15 hours a day, took a week off from work to get this far, so I am cranky about the fact you haven't come forward with your ideas and opinions during the first 2 weeks were i have posted the designation map several times....also I have changed quite a bit according the remarks I got at THAT moment. I just go mad working this way and that makes me instable psychologically, and I don't want nor need that pressure from anyone...no pun intended.

In all honestly Praedator, I'd never recommend prioritizing modding over real life. Putting 15 hours a day into Anvil is certainly an impressive and laudable feat, which certainly shows in the quality of your work, but progressing at a more comfortable rate wouldn't have caused any harm. Modding is a hobby, and it's best to treat it as such.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 19 Aug 2014, 12:23

Yeti wrote:
Praedator wrote:[Edit] I have spent 3 weeks hard work lets say 15 hours a day, took a week off from work to get this far, so I am cranky about the fact you haven't come forward with your ideas and opinions during the first 2 weeks were i have posted the designation map several times....also I have changed quite a bit according the remarks I got at THAT moment. I just go mad working this way and that makes me instable psychologically, and I don't want nor need that pressure from anyone...no pun intended.

In all honestly Praedator, I'd never recommend prioritizing modding over real life. Putting 15 hours a day into Anvil is certainly an impressive and laudable feat, which certainly shows in the quality of your work, but progressing at a more comfortable rate wouldn't have caused any harm. Modding is a hobby, and it's best to treat it as such.



Its that or 15 hours gaming a day, frankly it doesn't change anything, I need the occupation in order not to think about stuff that annoys me, and causing sleep depriviation.

@roerich: CEO has been included at nr 31 at Passenger Poor Harbour. The Imperial Navy has an enormous HQ, with a medium sized school and a medium sized warehouse. The HQ is the largest building actually and the one that will make the interior will have his hands full for weeks.

MoonAndStar wrote:Come now, let's get along! Roerich's in the right of it. really most of these concers don't require any major changes to the exterior. The thieves guild can be turned into a house, the boating club can be given another name, etc. Regarding the navy HQ, I agree with Prae and SamirA. It really doesn't need to be fortified. (another thing would be a coastal battery by the lighthouse defending the harbor entrance). If you want it to stand out, really all you need is to cover the building in the appropriate banners, and have a lot of military personnelle wandering around. That's all you need for the player to understand what the building is.


TG HQ will remain, explained earlier that a coastal battery would look out of place, as the peninsula should be resized and rearranged, spilling lots of work and ggiving the Peninsula an even 'fatter'look, and texture mismatch between imp and anvil exts. I totally agree on the Imp Navy way of standing out. At the back of the HQ is a large exercition area, for training and parade rehersals.

@Infragris: I totally agree with what you have said.

@St. Jiub: according to what the new designation or naming will be, I can add appropriate clutter, like double sized rowboats or fishnet trampoline, whatever is needed.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Infragris » 19 Aug 2014, 20:40

Say, in the case of special banners for the city watch: would it not suffice to give the existing banners a red edge or something? Should be easy to do, no?

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 19 Aug 2014, 21:01

Infragris wrote:Say, in the case of special banners for the city watch: would it not suffice to give the existing banners a red edge or something? Should be easy to do, no?


Also that is fine with me Infragris :)

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 20 Aug 2014, 12:29

Some screens http://praedatorsnest.blogspot.nl/2014/08/pc-anvil-update-mge-screens.html of Anvil, from where it is at right now.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Worsas » 21 Aug 2014, 17:24

You have really done a great job on the city. With regards to cluttering aswell as with regards to layout and overall design.

I didn't want to make you or your work look bad here or in the Anvil-discussion. There were just things that struck me as odd at that moment and I wanted them to get dealt with before it's too late. If I was to unfriendly or forcey at that moment, I'm sorry. I have not wanted to be.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 21 Aug 2014, 20:15

apology accepted, and it was not in my intention to make you feel bad, I just mentally exploded and went haywire...so please accept my apologies as well Worsas. Its hard to deal with dissappointment for me, maybe its just because neither of us both has english as mothertongue and just plainly translate from either dutch or german into english so it sounds harsh.

[edit] short note, I have had between 200-320 visitors for each of the 3 Anvil posts I made in the past month.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Infragris » 21 Aug 2014, 22:37

I'm at a loss of ideas for those fine shops - I guess we should assign names and identities to them based on work in the NPC detailing threads.

One general idea: we should have one or more of these shops owned by (culturally) Redguard people: I'm thinking of the Fine Weaponsmith (19) and maybe the Potter & Misc item shop (38) or the Poor Clothier (40). Together with the Redguard warehouse (53), the presence of Redguard could dynamically play into the Sutch business: as tensions rise, people in Anvil start to badmouth them, claiming they are supporting the rebels. If Hammerfell reclaims the city, an angry mob loots these buildings (enable/disable some wreckage).

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Praedator » 22 Aug 2014, 06:45

Infragris wrote:I'm at a loss of ideas for those fine shops - I guess we should assign names and identities to them based on work in the NPC detailing threads.

One general idea: we should have one or more of these shops owned by (culturally) Redguard people: I'm thinking of the Fine Weaponsmith (19) and maybe the Potter & Misc item shop (38) or the Poor Clothier (40). Together with the Redguard warehouse (53), the presence of Redguard could dynamically play into the Sutch business: as tensions rise, people in Anvil start to badmouth them, claiming they are supporting the rebels. If Hammerfell reclaims the city, an angry mob loots these buildings (enable/disable some wreckage).


I am all OK with that but the potter should maybe be a Colovian, as we have the new colovian misc set.

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Re: Gold Coast Exterior: Q6-7 + P6-7 + O6-7 [Praedator] [Anv

Postby Saint_Jiub » 29 Aug 2014, 05:37

Working on some new windows for the chapel: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tmpcfwuhvu5of ... l.png?dl=0

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