Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

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Infragris
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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Infragris » 26 May 2014, 13:35

Isn't that the same concept of the Dunmer Daedric masks, though? I don't think this is the right way to show Daedric influences on Imperial culture, honestly. This explicit connection between military and ruling orders and the Daedra, the Daedra as expression of cultural aspects, ... It's all very dunmerish, and doesn't mesh with the cultural opposition between the legion and the natives we see in the vanilla game. Daedra worship seemed more like a citizen's affair to me, I guess. It's a nice drawing, but it doesn't evoke a battlemage to me: not as part of the legion, not as old Niben aristocracy, and not as the in-game class. Blackwood native, maybe.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Saint_Jiub » 07 Jun 2014, 02:01

Infragris wrote:Isn't that the same concept of the Dunmer Daedric masks, though? I don't think this is the right way to show Daedric influences on Imperial culture, honestly. This explicit connection between military and ruling orders and the Daedra, the Daedra as expression of cultural aspects, ... It's all very dunmerish, and doesn't mesh with the cultural opposition between the legion and the natives we see in the vanilla game. Daedra worship seemed more like a citizen's affair to me, I guess. It's a nice drawing, but it doesn't evoke a battlemage to me: not as part of the legion, not as old Niben aristocracy, and not as the in-game class. Blackwood native, maybe.

The idea is inspired by Morrowind's concept art, however it's a concept that never made it into the game (half the masks are missing, and while two of the other three show up on Buoyant Armigers, there's no reference to Boethiah or Nerevar whom the masks are supposed to show. Most people in the community assume they're made and worn by the Dremora). It is a cool idea though, and one that should find its way in-game. Maybe not as this, for the reasons stated, but you'll probably see the same idea show up again in later drawings.

Mask aside, what about this falls short as a concept to you? Most of his design is inspired or pulled directly from Morrowind/Oblivion legion elements, including the leopard kilt.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Ald-Ma' Cyrod » 07 Jun 2014, 19:10

saying daedric worship is a 'citizens affair' seems off considering battlemages are eastern upper class and effected by nib culture. esoteric and numinous are the words used in the pge iirc, and foreign worship is implied. I'd even say battlemages and merchant-princes are the height of that standard. fishermen would probably be prosecuted for open worship of dagon but I think the aristocracy would easily get away with it. which is more interesting and could be a cool quest line for the legion, introducing some daedric worship as you raise ranks

also nice designs on the nibenese jiub. personally ive always thought they would shy away from facial hair due to elven cultural impact/ ancestry but the clothing is exactly how I imagine them
"Weird is relative." - S'Rathra

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Infragris
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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Infragris » 08 Jun 2014, 18:57

Long explanation coming:

Regardless of whether they made it into the game, the masks remain a very dunmeri cultural concept. To the Dunmer, Daedra worship (more specifically, Daedra as aspects of existence) was at the foundation of their way of life -it makes sense for this to be reflected in the garb of their society's upper class - for a leading warrior or politician to don the appearance of the Daedra ans assume its aspect. To the Nibenese, Daedra worship is more incidental, a result of their cosmopolitan attitude and casual worship totems, spirits and foreign or domestic gods.

The government takes part in this by promoting its own selection of patron deities, mostly the Nine Divines and hero-cults like those of Reman, Tiber Septim, Morihaus or Alessia. Beyond the social sphere, however, we have repeatedly been told that the role of religion in political and military matters is very limited - due to Imperial distrust of Marukhati-style theocracies. In this case, it is very unlikely for any official figure to publicly assume the aspect of a Daedra, certainly not in battle. Of course, a battlemage may well be a Dagonite, but this would not carry over to his official function. At least, that's how I see it, and this is the way in which I think we can best distinguish Imperial Daedra worship from Dunmeri Daedra worship.

There is, I think, a difference between a Niben aristocratic battlemage, and the battlemage as part of the Legion. The former is an ancient caste, formed in the early years of the Alessian Empire, who hold power in the Nibenay as a kind of land-owning gentry. In the same way that medieval knights started out as cavalry units to be summoned by their liege, and ended up a political and cultural institution whose characteristics have little to do with their military value. A modern Niben battlemage, then, is primarily a governor and a landowner. His magical prowess and equipment are a matter of privilege, signs of office, and their practical use is secondary. The battlemage as part of the modern Imperial Legion, however, is something we see more of in Battlespire: he or she is an elite soldier (of any race) following a legion training program in a special complex in outer space - a special branch of the Legion, with a military personality and culture.

As I said, I like the design, and looking at it again I see how you incorporated elements of vanilla armor in an interesting fashion. But to me it feels like a kind of Nibenese shock trooper or berserker, not an elite armored spellcaster. Battlemage equipment should imply something of their weird off-world activities of recent years: their connection to the Battlespire, their role as officers, their appellation of "the Shadow Legion". Also, something that's somewhat besides the point, but your choice of Mehrunes Dagon as mask made me question the concept quite a bit: Dagon is the one who conspired with Tharn, imprisoned the Emperor during the Simulacrum and destroyed the Battlespire. I don't think his visage would be too popular among battlemages right now.

Anyway, back to masks. Allow me to propose an alternative concept: instead of the Daedra, battlemages and other warriors could wear masks depicting aspects of the Nibenese totem animals: the bull, the snake, the tiger, the moth, ... This would ground the idea in specifically Nibenese cultural terms, and ally the wearer to Empire-friendly spirits.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Saint_Jiub » 10 Jun 2014, 05:40

That's cool, I'll keep playing with it. I guess I've been going off the Oblivion model of a battlemage (in gameplay terms), where they're lightly armored or unarmored with an emphasis on melee combat in addition to magic. IMO Morrowind didn't do enough to distinguish the battlemage, spellsword, and sorcerer from each other, either in gameplay terms or in terms of lore.

On another note, I'm still plugging away at my Divines concepts (I'll probably see if TESRenewal or Beyond Skyrim are interested in them as well for statue concepts or something). Arkay's next up to the plate: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gsplcuqla9ao26d/arkay.png

Based on the Song of the Abyss, I wanted to make Arkay feel more like a river spirit, as well as incorporate his association with the seasons.

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Infragris
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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Infragris » 10 Jun 2014, 12:09

Very nice. I wonder if you could insert the symbol of the interlocking squaressomewhere in his tattoos? The ball in the center isn't really necessary, but I always liked those squares as a symbol.


EDIT: Saint_Jiub, did you ever see this note on the originally intended scale of the Daedric masks? I wonder if we could make that work somehow.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Saint_Jiub » 29 Oct 2014, 07:19

Rough sketch of the interior of the Chapel of Dibella: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4mkm0p2beizv ... a.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Worsas » 29 Oct 2014, 11:45

That is a funny approach indeed. Having the insde of the "church" like a living room.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Saint_Jiub » 29 Oct 2014, 15:47

I kinda ran out of space on either side of the page so it's all more cramped than i would have liked, but ideally what I was thinking was that we would still have rows of "pews" (sofas or divans) in front of the altar for sermons, and then the couches, tables and the rest further off to either side.

Basically, to me Dibella's places of worship should evoke the feeling of an expensive brothel- lots of incense, cushions, and cozy nooks where yourself and your chosen priest/priestess can have an intimate moment.

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Infragris
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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Infragris » 29 Oct 2014, 15:51

I was hoping we could have a kind of sacred baths/intimate area underneath the main chapel hall? Maybe with two stairs leading away on either side of the altar (I think the exterior model has a kind of tower, so maybe one going up, the other down). Sort of split up the public and private parts of the temple. It would be difficult to attain a sense of intimacy when there's this whole audience of pews facing you.

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Re: Saint_Jiub's Art Thread

Postby Saint_Jiub » 01 Nov 2014, 04:24

Maybe I explained it wrong- the door behind the altar in this drawing (although the two doors on either side make more sense) would lead to the private quarters (and/or baths). The chapel itself would be more like a lobby, where worshippers can flirt with the priests over a glass of wine, enjoy pleasurable conversation/snuggling on the couches, etc. All pretty PG-rated stuff, the good stuff goes on behind closed doors.

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