More clothing ideas

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Tarius
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Tarius » 29 Aug 2011, 18:55

In my opinion, I think this is one of those things that should not be seen in public. I agree that it would probably be a bit much for some people to see someone dressed in nothing but jewelry just walking the streets. I think it would be ok to have them inside of a given building and if the furnishings on the inside where these people are seen match the jewelry nicely, then I think it would be fine to include them.

(Aw come on, no one thought my joke was funny? ha)
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Lady Nerevar
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Lady Nerevar » 30 Aug 2011, 20:00

Speaking of tits, here's an excerpt from Skyclad: Nudity in the Empire Through the Ages, by Darius of Sutch.

Like much of Heartland culture, the Cyrodil taboo against nudity stems from their enslavement at the hands of the Ayleid. The original Nedic tribes of the Niben wore very little or nothing at all, going clad in feathers, precious stones, or simply-worked cloths. The Ayleids, who wore opulent layers of cloth, metal, and feather, saw the nakedness of the Nedes are proof of their degeneracy and animal nature. The elves kept them naked, providing only a cloth to tie about the loins. The discrepancy between the dress of the oppressed and the oppressor was not lost on the slaves, and, reinforced by Ayleid indoctrination, the Nedes came to see their naked flesh as highly undesirable. It is not surprising that the early rulers of Cyrod wore their weight in silks, seeking to prove (in the language of their oppressors) that they were worthy to rule.

With the rise of the extremist Alessian Order, the opulent dress of the Aleshanic kings was outlawed, and nudity became a deeper shame than ever before. Whereas it was a mark of barbarity in the days of the first Empire, the Alessians established it as a major moral transgress. To them it represented physical temptation and limitation, and was therefore to be denied. It was no longer a social faux pas - it had been elevated to the newly created rank of sin. Paradoxically, nudity due to poverty was held as holy in some circles, provided that the beggar-saint could not be perceived as sexual. There are also anecdotes of orgies being held at the palaces of high-ranking cult officials, though it is impossible to ascertain whether these were took place (suggesting a major rift between preached and practiced philosophy) or whether the tales were made up to discredit the cult.

A series of groups glorifying the naked form arose alongside the Alessian Order, perhaps as a rebellion against their tyrannical regime or merely as a natural progression (or regression) back to tribal roots. The most famous of these were the Dibellites, who took to dressing in translucent silks if they dressed at all. Their swirling tattoos and the soft jingle of their bells (fastened at ankle, ear, and neck so as to highlight their nakedness) made them symbols of sexuality in Cyrod and beyond. Most other groups did not go as far - bared chests gained popularity, as did higher hems and lower waist lines.

The true end of prudishness came after the downfall of the Dominion. The weakened economy forced people to cut back on the purchase of cloth, and this, combined with the fall of the morality laws, led to people wearing less clothing. Movements calling for a return to true Cyrodiilic culture (as opposed to the elven-inspired First Empire or the heretical Alessians) brought about a return of tribal clothing - or at least a more modern, modest version thereof. Naked multitudes bathing in the Rumare became a common sight, as did nobles “dressed” in gold paint and jewelry. By the time of Reman, Cyrodiil had shed its prudish past.

Social nudity remained accepted and commonplace in the east throughout the late first and early second eras. The standard of dress slowly homogenized with the frigid north and Colovian estates, leading to less revealing garments. The Empire also had the effect of uniting previously isolated nations, and effectively combining indigenous costumes into a more acceptable, nationalist style, largely devoid of the barred flesh so characteristic of heartland natives. At the same time, full public nudity fell out of disfavor, perhaps due to the increased influence from the elven states. At present, it is uncommon to see bared breasts or thighs in the empire, and public nudity is restricted to the destitute (who have no choice) or the wealthy (who make a sort of ritual of public baths).

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Helena
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Helena » 05 Sep 2011, 21:35

Changing the subject slightly: I've made some BB common/expensive clothing using models taken from Westly's Fine Clothiers of Tamriel. Here are a few of them, modelled by residents of Stirk:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/ ... hot059.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/ ... hot061.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/ ... hot062.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/ ... hot063.jpg
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/ ... hot064.jpg

If you guys agree that these would work for the mod, I could ask Westly for permission to use the clothing.

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SamirA
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby SamirA » 05 Sep 2011, 21:48

Those do look good, the only thing is I'm trying to get us away from the BB dependency if possible. Right now our guard armor is getting a slight re-design to make it more unique and fit better in TES: III. I would love to see if someone might be able to model some clothing similar to what you have shown here that is not limited only to BB. Then we can function better as a mod by ourselves which I think is the best route with such a large mod. It may be necessary to use BB if we can't get some clothes done ourselves, but for now I'm holding out that we can get someone to make good clothing that will work for both.
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Helena
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Helena » 05 Sep 2011, 22:17

There's no actual dependency on BB at present - just use of Better Clothes models. I understand what you mean about not wanting to be dependent on other mods, but I just don't think it'll be possible to make clothing that fits both vanilla and BB bodies. Armour, perhaps, but the clothing models are just too different. It's basically a choice between pissing off the vast majority of people who use BB, or the tiny minority who don't.

I guess the other solution would be to design both vanilla and BB versions of all the new clothing, and include the BB stuff as an optional plugin. But that way we'd have to make ALL the new clothing for ourselves, twice over, and we don't even have a clothing modder at present. I'd like to be able to use some pre-made stuff; that way I can at least start putting Cyrodiilic-style clothing on the Stirk characters.

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SamirA
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby SamirA » 05 Sep 2011, 23:03

Yeah, it's a tough call. You can talk to Westly.
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Tarius
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Tarius » 06 Sep 2011, 00:30

SamirA wrote:Yeah, it's a tough call. You can talk to Westly.

Shouldnt be that tough a call. The overall majority of people use Better Bodies. I think that mabe you could make a version that just uses regular vanilla clothing in place of everything (and go ahead with the new stuff) if you worry that much about it.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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SamirA
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby SamirA » 06 Sep 2011, 00:45

The issue is not whether most people use BB or not. It is being dependent upon an outside mod PERIOD. It doesn't matter what that mod is. I imagine everyone on this team uses BB, and that almost everyone playing Morrowind does as well, that still doesn't mean we should be dependent upon it if we can avoid it. As I said though, Helena can talk to Westly, though FCOT is already listed as usable as a resource so you really don't have to talk to him unless you need help setting up the clothing.
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dirnae
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby dirnae » 06 Sep 2011, 11:15

Just to add further perspective on this, S:HOTN will be avoiding it where possible, as to not hinder future body mods, but wont be avoiding it completely. I've discussed this wiht Lestat and BB will be required.

Province mods have a huge amount of work behind them, I think the use of BB is excuseable. That said, if you're making a mesh from scratch, you might as well make it somewhat friendly between body formats.
*DISCLAIMER: If you find anything I say offensive, disregard it as bad humour. Failure to do so will result in pointing and laughing. You have been warned.*

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Helena
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Helena » 06 Sep 2011, 19:04

SamirA wrote:As I said though, Helena can talk to Westly, though FCOT is already listed as usable as a resource so you really don't have to talk to him unless you need help setting up the clothing.

Ah, so we have permission? That's OK then - I didn't realise it was already a resource.

As I mentioned before, there's no actual dependency on BB at present. You can use BB clothing meshes with the vanilla bodies; they'll just look a bit funny. In fact, most of the clothing replaces the relevant body parts anyway - it's only on clothing with alpha transparencies, e.g. short sleeves and low necklines, that you get clipping problems.

If we're going to have any 'skimpy' outfits as discussed earlier in the thread, I think we pretty much have to choose between BB and vanilla - there's no way you could design that kind of outfit to fit both body types. Basically, any clothing that shows skin is likely to cause problems if it's used on the wrong body mesh. I hadn't considered future body mods, but I don't really see the point in worrying about them - they're a) a long way away and b) impossible to make clothes for anyway, as we don't know what they'll look like. Mod compatibility is all very well, but it's a bit much to limit our options based on mods that might be made sometime in the future.

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dirnae
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby dirnae » 06 Sep 2011, 19:21

There is a compatability problem with BB pants and vanilla bodies.
They only replace the right(?) leg, so with vanilla bodies one leg isn't replaced and sticks through the mesh.

If you were to prevent that though you wouldn't be able to make revealing clothing for BB as easily.
*DISCLAIMER: If you find anything I say offensive, disregard it as bad humour. Failure to do so will result in pointing and laughing. You have been warned.*

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Helena
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Helena » 09 Sep 2011, 19:31

Just ran into a serious problem when testing the clothes: The pants, and pretty much all the items with transparencies, clip badly or disappear altogether with vanilla armour. :( It's not due to them being set up wrongly; the original FCoT mod has the same problems. Some of the clothes are still useable, but this definitely needs more discussion, as it clearly has implications for any other clothing we make that uses transparencies.

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dirnae
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby dirnae » 09 Sep 2011, 20:38

If I understand correctly, you're having the problem I mentioned briefly above.

The leg meshes on BB are combined into the right leg slot, the left slot is empty.
This makes no difference as there isn't seperate right and left leg equipment, and all objects will layer over the body.

So the left leg slots are free, great, now you can use those to make transparent clothing which replaces left leg slots instead of something else. You must replace at least one body part for clothing or armor for either to show up, if you want to make new shirts that show some skin for example, with the left leg slots free instead of replacing the chest piece (in which case your characters torso would dissappear), you replace something like the left knee which isn't used in BB leg meshes.

However, once you start mixing these BB meshes which replace left leg slots with vanilla equipment which may layer on top of them (armor) or use vanilla bodies or clothing which may layer below, because these do use left leg slots you get problems. Does that make sense? That post was pretty vague, so I'm not sure if this is the exact issue you're having.
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Helena
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Helena » 09 Sep 2011, 21:26

I understand what you're saying, but that's not exactly the problem I'm having - BC pants don't clip/disappear when you wear armour, whereas these ones do. I think the issue is with the mesh itself rather than the body slots in the CS. The BC pant meshes are segmented into different parts - Tri Groin, Tri Right Ankle etc. - but the FCoT meshes are 'one-piece' meshes using only one slot, Tri Groin. Assigning the mesh to Tri Groin or Tri Left/Right Upper Leg conflicts with greaves, making the pants disappear; assigning it to Tri Left/Right Ankle conflicts with boots. I've managed to get the pants to show up along with armour by using the Knee slot, but they still clip badly with the armour.

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dirnae
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby dirnae » 09 Sep 2011, 21:35

That's lack of segmentation, yes. It's not too hard for a modeller to segment the mesh though. I wont myself, I don't like making promises that I'll never keep.
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Saint_Jiub
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Saint_Jiub » 02 Jan 2013, 01:15

Sorry for the necromancy, but this blog is a treasure trove of interesting clothing concepts. In particular, the page I linked is Indian haute couture, which fits the Nibenese people surprisingly well.

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Saint_Jiub
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Saint_Jiub » 06 Jan 2013, 09:20


StoneFrog
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby StoneFrog » 06 Jan 2013, 17:31

I'm not sure if Nibenese dress ought to be that exotic. Perhaps some outfits of that kind could exist for ceremonial/historical reasons, but I think it's a bit too savage looking for everyday use. I do really like the Spanish influence in your Colovian references, though.

If the Colovians are to appear more militarized and pragmatic in their dress, perhaps the Nibenese could look more domestic oriented? Early clothing from the Italian/mediterranean region comes to mind, although perhaps even this is a bit too cosmopolitan for them:

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwi ... 903624.jpg

Here's an Aztec reference that I think is a bit closer to the mark, and closer to what you had in mind as well - I still think some of the males here look too ceremonial, but the female drapery is nice:

http://www.sbceo.k12.ca.us/~vms/carlton ... othing.jpg

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MoonAndStar
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby MoonAndStar » 06 Jan 2013, 18:20

When it comes to Nibenese clothing i think more Southeast Asia and less Mesoamerica. Especially for the female clothing. here's an example of female vienamese clothes. obviously not all of them are appropriate, but there are a few here and there that could be useful:

http://lilsuika.deviantart.com/art/Evolution-of-Vietnamese-Clothing-and-Ao-Dai-287945386?moodonly=24&offset=0

And here are some hair styles and stuff. Again, I would mostly ignore the male ones, but the female ones seem suitable:

http://www.deviantart.com/morelikethis/collections/287945386#/d56ir4v

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Saint_Jiub
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Re: More clothing ideas

Postby Saint_Jiub » 06 Jan 2013, 18:38

Well, personally, I think the Asian influences, given that they derive pretty much entirely from the Tsaesci presence in Nibenay for a time, should be limited to the upper classes (noblemen, military elite, and knights) who would have had the most exposure to them. The middle/lower class I see as having more Mesoamerican inspiration, because it's closer to how the Ayleids were described (beads, feathers, furs, animal symbolism, etc.) and I would expect that influence to be much stronger than some vampire snakemen who they probably would never have had any exposure to. Not to mention, going with Vietnamese or Japanese for the peasants would be rather unsurprising and boring for me, since we're planning on sticking a lot of them in rice paddies.

I guess the TL;DR version is this:

Upperclass- Imperial + Tsaesci (Greco-Roman + Southeast Asian)
Middle/Lowerclass- Imperial + Ayleid (Greco-Roman + Mesoamerican)

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