Nibenese Garments

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Saint_Jiub
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Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 14 Mar 2014, 06:10

Since we're starting to flesh out Nibenay a little bit more now with regards to its architecture and culture, I thought maybe the time is ripe to hammer down the aesthetics of the Nibenese people.

My thought is that, just as we have a northern and western Colovian style, we would be well-served to have a few different regional variants for Nibenay. Here's a WIP of the first style I'm working on, a posh, cosmopolitan set to be used for the Imperial City region: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffqv16fnrn8a7 ... rclass.JPG

The blank space in the top right is for headwear, I'm thinking of maybe some silk head wraps if I can find a way to do it that doesn't blatantly look like a turban.

Commentary and criticism, as well as ideas for going forward, are welcome.

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MoonAndStar
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby MoonAndStar » 14 Mar 2014, 12:41

Looking good! I especially like the bottom two, with all the elements like buttons, beads and cloths. That's one of the things that should distinguish from Colovian clothes which are simple and uniform. Maybe consider adding more of that kind of thing, like little coinpurses or something, maybe as a way of showing off wealth.

I think perhaps the items could be more asymmetrical, with different lenghts, shapes or designs on the sleeves, like in your original landsknecht idea :)

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Infragris
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Infragris » 14 Mar 2014, 18:30

I would lose the ruff on the bottom left one. Other than that, these are right on point: the slashed sleeves and piled-up cloth emphasize the importance of silk and the wealth of the merchant class. Sort of northern renaissance, but not too over the top. For further inspiration, I would suggest looking at early renaissance and Flemish Primitive paintings: people sometimes wear weird things in those.

Recently rediscovered some old illustrations I had lying around, might be inspirational. Lots of turban variations:
Turkish and Kurdish clothes:
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... 9bce48.jpg
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... ac858f.jpg (maybe more of a Colovian thing)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... c51dc7.jpg
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... b45f5f.jpg

Armenian clothes:
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... 48b4b2.jpg

Tatars and Siberians (might be nice for the Bruma/Cheydinhal border):
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... d58ecb.jpg
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... 58c7cc.jpg
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... ab817c.jpg

Chinese:
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... cb689c.jpg (I like the reed coat and bowl hat he's wearing - might be nice for a Niben farmer/fisherman style)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a58 ... 1e0130.jpg (a policeman from the turn of the century)

Also, I made this cloth-wrap like hat as an alternate Silver helm some time ago:
http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/Infra ... ort=3&o=20

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Saint_Jiub
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 15 Mar 2014, 04:26

Yeah, I agree the ruff didn't work as well as I was hoping it would. I may come back to it later, but for now I'll probably end up redesigning that piece.

I'm not sure if I'll specifically model the Cheydinhal region off of that Siberian garb, but there's definitely some cool ideas in there, thanks for the links.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 15 Mar 2014, 15:08

I think some vietnamese clothing would be pretty fitting too, colouring-wise atleast.

http://truongdongha.com/blog3/wp-conten ... nam-02.jpg
http://truongdongha.com/blog3/wp-conten ... nam-03.jpg

The different hair and hat styles are also pretty good:
http://truongdongha.com/blog3/wp-conten ... nam-04.jpg

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Griff
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Griff » 15 Mar 2014, 18:17

Stargate tv series has some cool costumes maybe not usefull though

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 15 Mar 2014, 18:48

Mmkay, here's what I'm thinking right now. Three styles:

Imperial City: The heart of modern civilization; regal, overstuffed, and gaudy. Indian, Greek, and British influences.

Northern Nibenay (Bruma, Cheydinhal): Lingering Tsaesci influences due to proximity with Pale Pass. British and Vietnamese influences.

Southern Nibenay (Bravil, Leyawiin): In the heart of the jungle and swamp, the Imperials still cling to their Nedic and Ayleid heritage. Ancient Greek/Etruscan and Indian influences.

My big concern with the nonwestern fashion influences is that I want to avoid stereotypical depictions like paddy hats and big turbans for them whenever possible, because I think they'll ultimately distract from the unique identity we're trying to forge for the Imperials. Plus, it'd be kind of cliche to put conical straw hats on rice paddy laborers, though that doesn't necessarily mean we can't have something inspired by it elsewhere.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby SamirA » 15 Mar 2014, 21:17

Could be good, I would like to see a lot of those asian influences appearing throughout in perhaps the hat area. I think a lot of the hat designs posted earlier could work really well regardless of the basic style of the other garments as they will all be rather eclectic. Start producing the visuals and we will guide this to a good place just like we did Colovia. That system worked very well.
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Saint_Jiub
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 16 Mar 2014, 00:14


Ald_Moth
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 16 Mar 2014, 00:41

I kinda miss that patterned cloth in the middle a la Skyrim's emperor's robes, though. I personally would like to see the sleeves a little looser too.

Also I have to mention, but I'm a little iffy about the idea of mashing British and Indian style clothing together since... you know, yeah not exactly ideal implication-wise.
Last edited by Ald_Moth on 16 Mar 2014, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby SamirA » 16 Mar 2014, 00:44

That looks pretty cool Jiub!
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Saint_Jiub
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 16 Mar 2014, 01:34

Ald_Moth wrote:I kinda miss that patterned cloth in the middle a la Skyrim's emperor's robes, though. I personally would like to see the sleeves a little looser too.

Also I have to mention, but I'm a little iffy about the idea of mashing British and Indian style clothing together since... you know, yeah not exactly ideal implication-wise.

My pens aren't really fine enough to do intricate details and patterns, plus I tend to leave the specific patterning to the modelers and textures.

As far as the rest of it goes... Honestly, there's no ideal way to bring in the kinds of influences that people want for Nibenay. There needs to be some European medieval influence, in order to establish any sort of continuity with vanilla Morrowind, but the Western world has fucked over just about every culture we might want to bring into it. If we fully invest in one cultural influence like Vietnamese or Indian, then there's this awkward cultural/aesthetic gap that we have to explain away- why the culture that makes up 2/3 of the most powerful province of Tamriel is nowhere to be seen or heard from in the rest of the provinces as though it's a dirty little secret that the Imperials hide in favor of a more "normal", medieval-inspired aesthetic. If we go for a blend of non-Western influences, then we run the risk of being seen as a generic Asian fantasyland, which is already a huge problem in Western media (see Mists of Pandaria)

You can believe that this is something that I take seriously and give a lot of consideration, because cultural appropriation and whitewashed Orientalism aren't things that I want to bring to my work. That said, the elements that I try to draw out are ones that make sense in the gameworld and add to the culture of the Nibenese people. Slashed sleeves, lace and brocade from one culture, scarves, shawls, elaborate embroidery and ornamentation from the other. Done right, the influences should blend seamlessly into one coherent design that's larger than the sum of its parts.

Please, always feel free to let me know if I'm missing that target.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 16 Mar 2014, 02:40

Saint_Jiub wrote:
Ald_Moth wrote:I kinda miss that patterned cloth in the middle a la Skyrim's emperor's robes, though. I personally would like to see the sleeves a little looser too.

Also I have to mention, but I'm a little iffy about the idea of mashing British and Indian style clothing together since... you know, yeah not exactly ideal implication-wise.

My pens aren't really fine enough to do intricate details and patterns, plus I tend to leave the specific patterning to the modelers and textures.

As far as the rest of it goes... Honestly, there's no ideal way to bring in the kinds of influences that people want for Nibenay. There needs to be some European medieval influence, in order to establish any sort of continuity with vanilla Morrowind, but the Western world has fucked over just about every culture we might want to bring into it. If we fully invest in one cultural influence like Vietnamese or Indian, then there's this awkward cultural/aesthetic gap that we have to explain away- why the culture that makes up 2/3 of the most powerful province of Tamriel is nowhere to be seen or heard from in the rest of the provinces as though it's a dirty little secret that the Imperials hide in favor of a more "normal", medieval-inspired aesthetic. If we go for a blend of non-Western influences, then we run the risk of being seen as a generic Asian fantasyland, which is already a huge problem in Western media (see Mists of Pandaria)

You can believe that this is something that I take seriously and give a lot of consideration, because cultural appropriation and whitewashed Orientalism aren't things that I want to bring to my work. That said, the elements that I try to draw out are ones that make sense in the gameworld and add to the culture of the Nibenese people. Slashed sleeves, lace and brocade from one culture, scarves, shawls, elaborate embroidery and ornamentation from the other. Done right, the influences should blend seamlessly into one coherent design that's larger than the sum of its parts.

Please, always feel free to let me know if I'm missing that target.


Yeah, that definately is a problem, though I think that if we make things too westernized we might run into the opposite problem where everything becomes too familiar and too much like what people didn't like about Oblivion.

Also I think a lot of people have generally accepted most Imperials we've seen as Colovian, but that's a different discussion.

I think subtlety is the key here. Rather than having a 1:1 port of, say, a hanfu, we could have some general ideas of it incorporated into the clothing, such as its looser-fit and the apparent lack of any buttons. Plus, looser-fitting clothes would fit better for a warmer jungle climates of Nibenay.
I would imagine that if we were to change some Nibenese clothing from "slashed sleeves" to "loose sleeves" for example, the difference might be enough to make the push.
Colours, patterns and material could also help a great deal.
I don't know, I probably need to draw this at some point.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Tarius » 16 Mar 2014, 04:56

My pens aren't really fine enough to do intricate details and patterns, plus I tend to leave the specific patterning to the modelers and textures.

Draw the picture larger.

As far as the rest of it goes... Honestly, there's no ideal way to bring in the kinds of influences that people want for Nibenay. There needs to be some European medieval influence, in order to establish any sort of continuity with vanilla Morrowind, but the Western world has fucked over just about every culture we might want to bring into it. If we fully invest in one cultural influence like Vietnamese or Indian, then there's this awkward cultural/aesthetic gap that we have to explain away- why the culture that makes up 2/3 of the most powerful province of Tamriel is nowhere to be seen or heard from in the rest of the provinces as though it's a dirty little secret that the Imperials hide in favor of a more "normal", medieval-inspired aesthetic. If we go for a blend of non-Western influences, then we run the risk of being seen as a generic Asian fantasyland, which is already a huge problem in Western media (see Mists of Pandaria)

I think too much focus is being given to "what culture do we want to emulate" Screw emulating a culture and go with what we think it should look like. There is no reason to emulate a single culture in particular let alone try to fit a dozen of them in. There is also no reason to make sure MW has some sort of heavy influence on the place either. Yes, there can definitly be some influence, but this is a different province that is the city to MW's backwater town. Things will be different.
What needs asking here is: what does the concept art show and what is the background of the people? And then start work from there. Forget trying to blend real world cultures.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Saint_Jiub
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Saint_Jiub » 16 Mar 2014, 05:12

Tarius wrote:I think too much focus is being given to "what culture do we want to emulate" Screw emulating a culture and go with what we think it should look like. There is no reason to emulate a single culture in particular let alone try to fit a dozen of them in. There is also no reason to make sure MW has some sort of heavy influence on the place either. Yes, there can definitly be some influence, but this is a different province that is the city to MW's backwater town. Things will be different.
What needs asking here is: what does the concept art show and what is the background of the people? And then start work from there. Forget trying to blend real world cultures.


Let's not kid ourselves, if I was good enough to just make it up off the top of my head, I'd be doing this for a living instead of answering phones during the day for $12/hr. All art is just blending existing concepts in a new and interesting way, I'm just hammering down specific sources to make sure that I get the look I want.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing here.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Tarius » 16 Mar 2014, 16:47

Well than hears what I suggest, combine roman, asian, and southern US influences. That should be a sufficiently mixed bag.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 17 Mar 2014, 19:39

There's definately something that can be done with incorporating South American influences.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Tarius » 17 Mar 2014, 23:20

Ald_Moth wrote:There's definately something that can be done with incorporating South American influences.

I said southern US, not south american.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

Ald_Moth
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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 18 Mar 2014, 01:42

Tarius wrote:
Ald_Moth wrote:There's definately something that can be done with incorporating South American influences.

I said southern US, not south american.

Oh.

Still though, South America, man.

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Re: Nibenese Garments

Postby Ald_Moth » 19 Mar 2014, 18:54

I tried to sketched out a few quick concepts for Nibenese garments as well:
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Sarracenian/PC/nibenese_001.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Sarracenian/PC/nibenese_002.png
Double post oops

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