Martin's Past

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DJGamer
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Martin's Past

Postby DJGamer » 15 Mar 2011, 20:48

I've decided to move this discussion from the Sanguine thread because it doesn't necessarily require itself to be a Daedric quest. Again, there are three basic ways to execute this quest:

1. Make it a Blades Quest: We've been considering the concept of having a number of Blades quests ranging anywhere from simple to epic (probably mostly simple) that precede the main quest and are simply a way of "ranking up" around Cyrodiil. This is a good idea since the main quest itself won't be implemented until the Imperial City, so we can give the Blades a presence early on without having to figure out a way to add the Main Quest early or something.

Anyway, if it were to be done as a Blades Quest, the player won't be told why he needs to protect Martin, just that the Emperor and/or Jaufree consider him to be a person of importance to the Empire-with maybe some speculation that it could have something to do with one of Uriel's "visions", even though anyone who's played Oblivion will likely know better.

2. Make it a Daedric Quest: I thought up an idea where perhaps Sanguine's Rose was stolen from a shrine or something. I still think this could be a way to go with the idea but as Tarius said it seems unlikely since Sanguine would probably be able to just take it back quite easily without needing to involve any mortals in the process.

3. Make it a Mage's Guild quest: This would probably be the best option, and I've gone into some detail in the other thread regarding how I think this might unfold. At this point I'm going into territory that could apply to some extent to the other possible starting points, but I'm building primarily off the idea that the quest is given by the Mage's Guild.

The Guild asks you to investigate a group of students that is believed to be experimenting with dangerous Daedric magic. They are dwelling in a cave somewhere and you're asked to go in and see what's going on. When you get there you discover it has become infested with various creatures which of course you must fight your way through. In the final chamber you'll find Martin and a number of corpses of Daedric creatures with "Blades Arrows" in them (we might script it so if the player isn't a member of the Imperial Blades, they'll have a different name, like "Mysterious Arrow" or "Akaviri Arrow" or something). It appears that Martin was the only survivor of an accident in which they were experimenting with Sanguine's Rose, perhaps trying to find ways to amplify its power or some such thing. Martin is a bit baffled by how he managed to survive-and when you ask him about the arrows he'll say he does not know who shot them-maybe an archer who happened to be passing through the cave and helped out. He asks you to escort him out of the cave and once you do he announces that he's considering abandoning the Mage's Guild (he's probably going to be expelled anyway) and trying to become a member of the church in Kvatch.

On the way in and/or out of the cave the player might run into a mysterious archer. If you're not a member of the Blades, you won't get much information out of him and if you are you'll only get a little more.

The information you can get from him will be similar to what you get if this were a Blades quest. He says he was told to protect Martin specifically but not why-beyond that the Emperor and Jaufre believe him to be of vital importance to the future of the Empire, and again he may speculate it has something to do with one of Uriel's visions.

There has been some question as to whether or not this should logically fit into the period in which Province: Cyrodiil and Morrowind take place (six years prior to the events of Oblivion). Again, I'll include the quotations from Martin regarding the events:

-Bringing him Sanguine's Rose for the "Blood of the Daedra" Quest-

Martin Septim wrote:I never thought to see this again. I once possessed it, briefly ... a lifetime ago, it seems now ... To obtain it, and then give it up... I honor your dedication to our cause.


-When asked about his past involvement with Daedric magic-

Martin Septim wrote:As a young man, I grew impatient with Mages Guild restrictions, as did many of my fellow apprentices. We threw ourselves into the riddles of daedric magic. We hungered for forbidden secrets. Knowledge and power were our gods. You can guess the rest. We got in over our heads. People died. My friends died. I've put those days behind me. But the bitter wisdom that one has been a fool is not without value.


I believe this is all the information we are given about his past in this area. Six years is just over half a decade and after experiencing such a radical change in lifestyle as becoming a priest I speculate that it may seem like an even longer time for Martin. I don't believe a specific age was given for Martin in-game, but let's say he's exactly 30 years old in Oblivion (maybe a little older or younger since that would probably date his birth to the Imperial Simulacrum which would obviously not make him a legitimate heir). He would've been 24 then during these events-he'd have been a proper adult for quite some time but it's also possible that he'd have considered himself a "young man" simply because he'd been foolish and arrogant at the time.

I don't believe there's all that much more in the established backstory than what we can see in the quotations I've just given. I know it may be a bit of a stretch given some of his wording but since this has elements of being a "prequel" to Oblivion it's an opportunity to explore things like what exactly happened to Martin. For me, it's a rather difficult opportunity to pass up.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby ZackG » 24 Mar 2011, 14:00

I have questions about this. We cant just use everybody we saw in Oblivion and Morrowind who is now in Cyroiil, expect to create quests around them, and make our mod feel both separate and believable.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Worsas » 24 Mar 2011, 15:57

I'm fascinated about the amount of talk about quests in here. I personally do not have objections against the above plan of elaborating Martins past as mages guild member.

On the other hand I'm not into the overall plans for P:C too much. So I'm not in a position to judge anything, but it looks good to me so far.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby alex25 » 24 Mar 2011, 16:05

ZackG wrote:I have questions about this. We cant just use everybody we saw in Oblivion and Morrowind who is now in Cyroiil, expect to create quests around them, and make our mod feel both separate and believable.


While I agree to the above statement Martin is a important and cool enough character to do a quest about. A idea would be to "merge it" with the main questline at a point.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby DJGamer » 24 Mar 2011, 17:35

  1. Martin is obviously an important enough character.
  2. There's something of an established backstory.
  3. I've come to the inclusion that the best route would be to imply Blades involvement in his protection, but not actually task the player with it in their capacity as a Blades member.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Scamp » 24 Mar 2011, 20:49

alex25 wrote:A idea would be to "merge it" with the main questline at a point.


Uhh, we can of course include Martin but do we really have to steal parts of the dumb main quest? :mrgreen:
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby alex25 » 24 Mar 2011, 21:55

No. The ideea was to improve the main quest not copy and multiply the bad bits. More so the main questline as it is now dosen't deal with the PC's role as the Nerevarine. I find that after beating 2 gods and being proclaimed as a living saint you should be treated diffrently. Also Caius Cosades should be present in Cyrodiil at the apropriate time.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby ZackG » 24 Mar 2011, 22:02

I just find this unneeded. Almost forceful. Martin should be in total obscurity.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Tarius » 25 Mar 2011, 00:18

ZackG wrote:I just find this unneeded. Almost forceful. Martin should be in total obscurity.


I somewhat agree with this. If any inclusion is going to take place with him, I dont think it should be any central role.

I say that really it may be a good idea to post a poll in the bethesda forums asking people if they think: Would it be cool to have a quest centered on Martin Septim and his past as was mentioned in TES4:Oblivion?(people would probably be wondering about this anyway) Any poll question should not simply be however would: Would it be a cool idea to have a quest centered on Martin Septim?

I think this is one of those things where people would feel more strongly about it compared to other things.
Tarius: I have now conquered the galaxy twice and am working on a third. Once thats out of me, I will be back to work.
TDF: Which game is that(I assume its a game and not real life)
The Khan: If it was real life, we would know about it. And I dont think he means this Galaxy.
Tarius: Yes, I really lead a secret double life where I am a galactic overlord.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby DJGamer » 25 Mar 2011, 00:30

ZackG wrote:I just find this unneeded. Almost forceful. Martin should be in total obscurity.


That's why I suggest it not be a Blades quest, or in any way part of the main quest. The way I have it figured, it would be a random Mage's Guild quest and it just happens to center around Martin's past-and there just happens to be a Blades agent protecting him (again, the agent himself doesn't know why, and assumes it has something to do with one of the Emperor's visions).

We only hint at the fact that Martin has a greater destiny-and even then THAT might be an easter egg of sorts (the Blades Agent may be hard to find).

As far as the main quest, any discussion regarding that should be in the appropriate thread. As far as adding this to that, I'm with Zack, it would feel much too shoehorned-in and that's part of the reason why I think this shouldn't be a Blades quest necessarily and I prefer the idea of the Blades' involvement in protecting Martin being someone other than the player-and the player may or may not even figure out that the Blades were involved at all.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Worsas » 25 Mar 2011, 08:27

Okay, I see, you folks are tweaking your storylines. Perhaps, I just don't get what this is about, but 2 cents nevertheless:

First I'd like to say that I'd be happy if only we had 10% of the story input over there at the Skyrim-mod. I'm not the biggest storyteller myself, so there is nothing to do about that from my side.

So how many quests do you intent to accomplish in all? I guess, a fair deal. And now if one quest among 30 involves an encounter with Martin Septim and is about his past mentioned in Oblivion, where is the problem now? As far as I'm aware this is not intended as a main story line or something that needs that big amount of special attention.

Now where is the point in decreasing your story-stock? I would be more worried about getting anything into this big vastness. And I'm sure people that like consistency would also like an involvement of Martin.
Last edited by Worsas on 25 Mar 2011, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby alex25 » 25 Mar 2011, 09:25

Martin dosen't need to be in the main quest. Still It would be nice to have him somewhere you are likley to stumble upon. Also isn't it a bit premature to plan all the main quest? I mean its going to take a couple of years until we can implement it.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Scamp » 25 Mar 2011, 14:05

I totally agree with you people when you say we should not or do not have to implement Martin Septim in the Main Quest. Can't we have something entirely new in our main quest? Adding him as an important part of a Mages Guild Quest or whatever would really add a nice touch to the mod though.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 16:25

As far as I know the plan is for Martin to be part of the Mages Guild here and for him to maybe appear in a quest about the Sanguine Rose or whatever. Nothing beyond that. All the people from Oblivion will be in our Cyrodiil just not doing the same things. We will also have TONS of new NPC's everywhere.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Scamp » 25 Mar 2011, 17:59

Right, that sounds reasonable. I just wanted to make sure we aren't making Oblivion for Morrowind.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby DJGamer » 25 Mar 2011, 19:26

Scamp wrote:Right, that sounds reasonable. I just wanted to make sure we aren't making Oblivion for Morrowind.


Yeah, it's been our intent as stated in the FAQ to expand upon and offer our own "versions" of what exists in Oblivion. We may not even go so far as to recreate every single NPC-we might work it out that some of the NPCs from Oblivion were in other places six years prior-although I kinda imagine that some of that out of necessity may need to be somewhat arbitrary.

In some cases, we might have an NPC where there's something established about them where we'd have an actual logical justification for not including them but for others it would be just this little random touch to establish that not everyone who is there in the time of Oblivion was there at the time of Morrowind. I think we'd mostly avoid doing this with more interesting characters who might actually be missed unless they in fact fall into the category where it makes more sense for them not to be in Cyrodiil.

Anyway, that's slightly off-topic but a somewhat related subject.

On the subject of the main quest-I think we're pretty much in consensus that having him be part of the main quest is a bad idea.

I'd like to quickly outline what I'd say is the current direction I think we're going with this quest:

  • It'll be given to the player by the Mage's Guild-which location we haven't yet established-but probably either Kvatch or another guild hall in the general region-either Gold Coast or West Weald I'd imagine. Unless you actually are aware of his importance it will just be another quest the guild gives you for the most part.
  • I also like the idea of having a stealthy Blades archer protecting him. It helps to further "explain" why he is the sole survivor of the incident and also hints at his importance.
  • There will be hints of Blades' involvement in Martin's protection that will only be identifiable if the player is actually a member of the Imperial Blades faction. I.E. the arrows s/he finds on the Daedra's corpses will not be identified as being of Blades origin and that will be scripted to change if they're part of the faction.
  • The player may be able to run into the Archer at some point, possibly only before actually recovering Martin himself (it would be odd for the Blades member to be revealing info about him with Martin actually with the player). Again, the NPC will only be more forthcoming if the player is an Imperial Blades member, otherwise he'll only identify himself as a rogue or something who happened to be passing through the cave and decided to help.
  • Even the information he would give the player will be unclear. All he was told is that the Emperor believes he is important to the future of the Empire. This could mean any number of things and the thought that Martin could be a "lost heir" to the throne doesn't even cross his mind. He assumes that it has something to do with one of Uriel's visions, which often cause him to do seemingly inexplicable things like suddenly freeing a prisoner.

That's basically what I have in mind for the quest. Besides the suspicious Blades involvement that the player may or may not be able to identify it will just be a fairly regular Mage's Guild quest.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 19:38

Every NPC from Oblivion that is not expressly stated as being elsewhere before Oblivion should be used. That doesn't mean same dialogue and all that. It just means that the same name, rough looks, race and gender. We will have tons of new interiors to fill with new NPC's no need to make it even more difficult by not using people that already exist and have stories themselves. If Anvil is double its Oblivion size why would we want to create twice as many NPC's from scratch when we can adopt the Oblivion ones and then add our new ones thus halving the work of NPC design. This merely means that a shop keeper that was in some store in Anvil will be the same recognizable person but from a few years earlier with different things to talk about and different quests to give.
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Re: Martin's Past

Postby alex25 » 25 Mar 2011, 20:06

We shouldn't have the same quest givers and a few people should be missing or live somwhere else for realism but reusing a lot of NPC's seems a good ideea.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby SamirA » 25 Mar 2011, 23:42

No the quests will be all new, if some of the same give quests then so be it but it wont be the idea. Yes some may be off in other places. Some in fact are according to their backgrounds.

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Re: Martin's Past

Postby Scamp » 25 Mar 2011, 23:49

Congratz. :D

On topic, I think it's really necessary to have only new quests, like SamirA said. Reusing NCP ideas might be useful, but I don't see why there would be a need for that.
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